58 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Cal was at the game tonight and got a big cheer and that somehow led me to think more about Brooks and his legacy with the O's and in Baltimore.

Anyway, this got me thinking about something that's been discussed and debated on here, which is the importance of keeping some franchise players around for a long time. Sure, ultimately it's the laundry that we root for, but having a Brooks, a Palmer, and a Ripken is just so incredibly meaningful to a fan base. This is all to say that I hope young O's fans have the opportunity to deeply care about the passing of a Baltimore legend just as many older fans did with Brooks.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Cal was at the game tonight and got a big cheer and that somehow led me to think more about Brooks and his legacy with the O's and in Baltimore.

Anyway, this got me thinking about something that's been discussed and debated on here, which is the importance of keeping some franchise players around for a long time. Sure, ultimately it's the laundry that we root for, but having a Brooks, a Palmer, and a Ripken is just so incredibly meaningful to a fan base. This is all to say that I hope young O's fans have the opportunity to deeply care about the passing of a Baltimore legend just as many older fans did with Brooks.

Of course. Its why I aint down with being the Baltimore A's even if hypothetically it still led to a lot of reg season wins. To never have another Brookls or Cal or Jim isnt what this is about. And really Cal is the last true Os legend. Hes not particularly young. Jones is in a weird place. A step above a Markakis or Roberts but not a legend. More like say Belanger or Blair.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Cal was at the game tonight and got a big cheer and that somehow led me to think more about Brooks and his legacy with the O's and in Baltimore.

Anyway, this got me thinking about something that's been discussed and debated on here, which is the importance of keeping some franchise players around for a long time. Sure, ultimately it's the laundry that we root for, but having a Brooks, a Palmer, and a Ripken is just so incredibly meaningful to a fan base. This is all to say that I hope young O's fans have the opportunity to deeply care about the passing of a Baltimore legend just as many older fans did with Brooks.

The world and game is different. If those 3 were Orioles now, they likely would not spend the entirety of their career in Baltimore.

I don't think it really matters.

Most fans are casual bandwagon types.
It's fun to have players you can identify, but if the team continues to win and the players change, fans will adjust.

If you stop winning than fans will revolt with indifference.

This 23 team has a bunch of likable guys that casual and hardcore fans enjoy watching. Some who have the requisite talent and youth to be long-term staples if all things were equal... but there not.

The Orioles certainly have the ability to make strong offers to anyone on their roster especially those furthest from FA, and give them incentive to consider extending. They should be doing that with Gunnar, Grayson, Kyle imo.

Would it be cool if there were a new waive of guys who were career Orioles and spent 60 years / a lifetime with the organization?

It would certainly be remarkable and that's why of course Brooks and Cal and Palmer are revered.

Is it possible in 2023? I'm skeptical.
Is it necessary? I'm also skeptical.

[DuffMan]

Sustained success should certainly help them keep a player around if they want to. Obviously money talks, but a fair market value to stay with a winner is certainly possible to keep some of these guys around.

[mweb08]

Chris, it may not matter to you, but it absolutely matters to a lot of people.

There's also a significant gulf between spending a 20 year career with the team compared to 4ish.

So sure, the world and game is different now, so with that said if a franchise player stuck around for 10+ years, that would suffice. Eddie is a perfect example from the past actually.

Dealing all the top guys with 2 or so years left on their original club control will not suffice for me and many others.

Now that doesn't mean I'd be out as a fan, but it does mean my fan experience will be noticeably diminished.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I think the thing to remember is that even in the 70s and 80s, people were bemoaning the idea that in this new fast-paced modern world, players weren't spending their entire careers with one team.  It turned out to not really be true.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I'm not sure how we quantify this.
It sounds good that it matters to people. I'm sure it does to some. I suspect (and I cant back it up obviously) that most people would get over it if the team wins.

Most fans don't really know anyone.
So yeah, when there is some continuity and names to latch on to, that's enjoyed by casual and hardcore alike.

I know in 2012 we all wanted Machado to be an Oriole for life and were talking about him having a statue someday.

He left. The team was horrible. General fans and many hardcore fans too were ambivalent.

A new waive of guys arrived, the team is good, and people care again.

Rinse and repeat.

If you can find a way to stay good while the names change, I think you will keep the interest.

If you lose the names, and you aren't good, people will check out until you are good again.

I hope the Os trade Adley in two years, so I realize I'm the extreme of the other spectrum.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Chris thinks people will keep coming and will care if they continue to win even if they turnover a lot. I think he is mistaken. I know I will quit on this franchise 100% if they turn over every 4 years. If they decide hey we are gonna let these guys play out their team controlled 6 or 7 years then I prob stay. I also get there may be a situation where its wise to trade a guy in season. Say we are having a downish year next year but Mullins draws trade interest 1 and a half year away. I could see a move in that scenario. Thats a far cry from say going into this offseason after this year and saying well Santander is 1 yr from FA, Hays  and Mullins 2 years away, lets trade 2 of them and get back younger team controlled guys that may or may not help in 2026 or 2027 . F that.  

[ivanbalt]

Chris, it may not matter to you, but it absolutely matters to a lot of people.

There's also a significant gulf between spending a 20 year career with the team compared to 4ish.

So sure, the world and game is different now, so with that said if a franchise player stuck around for 10+ years, that would suffice. Eddie is a perfect example from the past actually.

Dealing all the top guys with 2 or so years left on their original club control will not suffice for me and many others.

Now that doesn't mean I'd be out as a fan, but it does mean my fan experience will be noticeably diminished.

I agree.  The Adam Jones ceremony a couple weeks showed this.  The crowd was happy to see Jones obviously, but also Markakis and even Chris Davis got a roaring applause.

[BobPhelan]

I think it should be a mix of both. Adley needs to be extended, his importance goes far beyond being a catcher that can hit. You need to try and lock up Gunnar but highly doubt it happens so in 3-4 years see if Holliday and Mayo (or whoever) is good enough for the left side and decide between riding out his control or trading him for a haul.

[mweb08]

I'm not sure how we quantify this.
It sounds good that it matters to people. I'm sure it does to some. I suspect (and I cant back it up obviously) that most people would get over it if the team wins.

Most fans don't really know anyone.
So yeah, when there is some continuity and names to latch on to, that's enjoyed by casual and hardcore alike.

I know in 2012 we all wanted Machado to be an Oriole for life and were talking about him having a statue someday.

He left. The team was horrible. General fans and many hardcore fans too were ambivalent.

A new waive of guys arrived, the team is good, and people care again.

Rinse and repeat.

If you can find a way to stay good while the names change, I think you will keep the interest.

If you lose the names, and you aren't good, people will check out until you are good again.

I hope the Os trade Adley in two years, so I realize I'm the extreme of the other spectrum.

Not some, most. That's incredibly obvious and not just something that sounds good. And not just for "fans" that know no one, but for more passionate fans too.

Still rooting for the team and getting hyped for moments like this could mean getting over it I suppose, but that also does not mean that their fan experience is where it should be. People can both remain passionate fans and be disappointed that the young franchise player only donned the black and orange for four years. Like how a spouse may stay with their significant other after they cheated on them. They are sticking it out, but that stuff still burns.

I hope there's another player before I die that I can cherish like 1970 and company cherished Brooks and people around my age and up cherished Cal. Hopefully even more than one.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Ok. I get that it means something to you and others. Means nothing to me and I follow the Orioles as much as anyone.

Won't convince me it means anything to most of the casual fanbase.

[Mackus]

How does the outpouring of stories about Brooks and fans at his statue in recent days not convince you that people enjoy having connections to players beyond them leaving the field?

It's not a question of being the difference between enjoyable or not enjoyable. It's about enhancement. I don't think there are very many people who don't enjoy seeing a past favorite show up to support the team. All sports. Ray at a Ravens game. Gary at a Terps game. Cal at an Os game. Doesn't need to be the biggest stars either to heighten the experience.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Wouldn't argue that if you get to have those experiences, that it doesn't enhance.

If you get to experience long term continuity and there is a bond, makes sense it would enhance for many.

Most fans (general or hardcore) want a few names to hold on to and connect with...

But in general I don't think it matters if there is a revolving door or not.

If the names change and you win, people will care.

If the names change and you lose, there will ne ambivalence.

[mweb08]

Ok. I get that it means something to you and others. Means nothing to me and I follow the Orioles as much as anyone.

Won't convince me it means anything to most of the casual fanbase.

Yes, it doesn't matter to you, but you're the most robotic fan I've ever encountered. Your apparent inability to step outside of that mindset and get how others feel about sentimental sports fandom is seemingly a limitation of yours so I guess I'll stop trying to convince you. Well at least after I point out that you argued against your conclusion in your prior post:

"Most fans don't really know anyone. So yeah, when there is some continuity and names to latch on to, that's enjoyed by casual and hardcore alike."

[BSLChrisStoner]

Yes, it doesn't matter to you, but you're the most robotic fan I've ever encountered. Your apparent inability to step outside of that mindset and get how others feel about sentimental sports fandom is seemingly a limitation of yours so I guess I'll stop trying to convince you. Well at least after I point out that you argued against your conclusion in your prior post:

"Most fans don't really know anyone. So yeah, when there is some continuity and names to latch on to, that's enjoyed by casual and hardcore alike."

That was me stepping out of my own mindset and understanding that for some people it matters.

[mweb08]

That was me stepping out of my own mindset and understanding that for some people it matters.

Lol OK

[Steve55]

I agree.  The Adam Jones ceremony a couple weeks showed this.  The crowd was happy to see Jones obviously, but also Markakis and even Chris Davis got a roaring applause.

 

 

I keep thinking Chris Davis may have survived if the shift was gone years ago. All those balls hit to the short rightfielder.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Lol OK

Adley, Gunnar, Grayson etc are going to come and go and the truth is you'll still be rooting for the laundry regardless.

And the bandwagon that has filled up this year will still be full of casual fans if the team continues to win.

And the bandwagon will get lighter if they suck again.


Again Machado. He's not getting an Orioles statue, he's not going into the HOF as an Oriole, and nobody cares because the current team is good and there are new names.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I’ll say it will be different if this group wins a WS.

But yea, with the world “smaller” today there is less of a feel of local ties mattering.