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#41 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:03 AM

Btw Im not a fan of cutters in general. But if you can make it work cool

#42 BobPhelan

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:10 AM

Btw Im not a fan of cutters in general. But if you can make it work cool


The Orioles are, that’s why I think they worked together on these changes. But they’re not for everyone, they had Grayson basically drop his.

#43 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:20 AM

The Orioles are, that’s why I think they worked together on these changes. But they’re not for everyone, they had Grayson basically drop his.

I just feel like its a weak contact pitch when done right vs a putaway pitch. And if you miss with it it goes a long way. Kremer cut way back on it too If Im not mistaken as it was getting crushed.


I want to see Grayson get in the lab and rework his slider. Or it can be the curve. But getting a breaking ball as an outpitch is the key to him unlocking stud mode. More than overall command. Find a go to breaking ball
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#44 Slidemaster

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:40 AM

The Orioles are, that’s why I think they worked together on these changes. But they’re not for everyone, they had Grayson basically drop his.


Interesting. Did that change with Elias? I remember that being a big point of contention when they made Bundy drop his cutter, which was his best pitch in high school.

#45 BobPhelan

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:49 AM

Interesting. Did that change with Elias? I remember that being a big point of contention when they made Bundy drop his cutter, which was his best pitch in high school.


Yeah, it’s a completely different organization from top to bottom.
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#46 makoman

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 11:55 AM

Yeah, it’s a completely different organization from top to bottom.

I feel like people always forget this, the failures of past prospects are still mentioned all the time. Like, Matusz and Arrieta and Gausman might as well have played for the Rockies, there's probably not a single person around today that was around then, other than Angeloses.


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#47 hallas

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 03:43 PM

Interesting. Did that change with Elias? I remember that being a big point of contention when they made Bundy drop his cutter, which was his best pitch in high school.

 

My recollection is that the previous regime was advocating dropping the cutter and basically making it a sweeper-type slider instead  The current regime seems to say that you can have either a cutter or a sweeper, and if you want to throw a slider as well it should be more slurve-like, with downward break in addition to horizontal break.

 

It's a pretty subtle distinction.  I think a cutter has its uses.



#48 hallas

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 03:45 PM

I feel like people always forget this, the failures of past prospects are still mentioned all the time. Like, Matusz and Arrieta and Gausman might as well have played for the Rockies, there's probably not a single person around today that was around then, other than Angeloses.

 

I don't think Gausman was a failure.  He had 2 good seasons with us, then the Orioles started sucking and it was clear our best option was to trade him and get some prospects for later.  You could take the fact that he turned into an ace after we left as a sign that we didn't develop him properly, but I'd rather take the simpler approach and say pitchers develop weirdly.



#49 makoman

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 03:56 PM

I don't think Gausman was a failure.  He had 2 good seasons with us, then the Orioles started sucking and it was clear our best option was to trade him and get some prospects for later.  You could take the fact that he turned into an ace after we left as a sign that we didn't develop him properly, but I'd rather take the simpler approach and say pitchers develop weirdly.

I don't think so either, I shouldn't have listed him there though he's definitely called an O's failure sometimes. That the Braves and Reds both dumped him for nothing kinda shows it wasn't just the O's, something else had to click for him to get to where he is today.



#50 JeremyStrain

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Posted 04 August 2023 - 10:18 PM

Rick Peterson (of As fame) was the guy in charge of pitching from 2012-2016. Him and his stupid biomechanics philosophy is to blame for a lot of the guys mentioned in this thread not working.

Not just banning the cutter (for having high injury risk, even though the injury risk with a high velo CV or SL is much higher). But also trying to force pitchers into a box and pitch his way with the pitches he likes instead of working with what each guy has and improving them. That dead era of pitching development is why we had to raze everything and start from scratch when our run ended in 17. There was nothing in the cupboard.
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#51 Slidemaster

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 10:53 AM

Rick Peterson (of As fame) was the guy in charge of pitching from 2012-2016. Him and his stupid biomechanics philosophy is to blame for a lot of the guys mentioned in this thread not working.

Not just banning the cutter (for having high injury risk, even though the injury risk with a high velo CV or SL is much higher). But also trying to force pitchers into a box and pitch his way with the pitches he likes instead of working with what each guy has and improving them. That dead era of pitching development is why we had to raze everything and start from scratch when our run ended in 17. There was nothing in the cupboard.


Why was he so successful prior to his arrival here?

#52 dude

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 01:33 PM

Rick Peterson (of As fame) was the guy in charge of pitching from 2012-2016. Him and his stupid biomechanics philosophy is to blame for a lot of the guys mentioned in this thread not working.

 

I'm not really commenting one way or the other because I'd guess there are a number of factors, but who was the BSL Analyst that was the "Peterson is fixing everything" guy?



#53 JeremyStrain

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 02:08 PM

Why was he so successful prior to his arrival here?


He inherited that stellar rotation in OAK with Hudson, Zito, Mulder etc. I think all of them just happened to fit his style and philosophy and they had the best pitchers park in baseball. He's had a few other stops and no where near the success he had there.

 

I think Bundy's dad said it best, you don't draft a guy that has a certain profile and then tell him he's got to change everything he did and can't use his best weapon. There have been multiple pitchers from that era that were all too excited to get out of town, and multiple pitchers we had in that era that flamed out, and I doubt it's a coincidence.


Just always seemed to me a guy that thought he was the smartest in the game and everyone had to do it his way or they'd fail. I think he ran afoul of Showalter at some point, and that ultimately led to his downfall. But I'm just guessing there, since he left after 2016, and it was kept really quiet when it happened.


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#54 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 02:18 PM


He inherited that stellar rotation in OAK with Hudson, Zito, Mulder etc. I think all of them just happened to fit his style and philosophy and they had the best pitchers park in baseball. He's had a few other stops and no where near the success he had there.

I think Bundy's dad said it best, you don't draft a guy that has a certain profile and then tell him he's got to change everything he did and can't use his best weapon. There have been multiple pitchers from that era that were all too excited to get out of town, and multiple pitchers we had in that era that flamed out, and I doubt it's a coincidence.

Just always seemed to me a guy that thought he was the smartest in the game and everyone had to do it his way or they'd fail. I think he ran afoul of Showalter at some point, and that ultimately led to his downfall. But I'm just guessing there, since he left after 2016, and it was kept really quiet when it happened.

Im sure it still happens a lot but I love that there is much less of the my way or the highway approach. Mazzone was the same way and people loved when we got him from Atl. He was gone within 2 years right. Its fine to have an overall philosophy but be flexible and work with what the players have.
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#55 Slidemaster

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 04:48 PM


He inherited that stellar rotation in OAK with Hudson, Zito, Mulder etc. I think all of them just happened to fit his style and philosophy and they had the best pitchers park in baseball. He's had a few other stops and no where near the success he had there.

I think Bundy's dad said it best, you don't draft a guy that has a certain profile and then tell him he's got to change everything he did and can't use his best weapon. There have been multiple pitchers from that era that were all too excited to get out of town, and multiple pitchers we had in that era that flamed out, and I doubt it's a coincidence.

Just always seemed to me a guy that thought he was the smartest in the game and everyone had to do it his way or they'd fail. I think he ran afoul of Showalter at some point, and that ultimately led to his downfall. But I'm just guessing there, since he left after 2016, and it was kept really quiet when it happened.

It does just seem insane to me that you draft a guy playing like he plays, and then try to change some of the core aspects about him that got him drafted.

#56 JeremyStrain

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Posted 05 August 2023 - 07:44 PM

It does just seem insane to me that you draft a guy playing like he plays, and then try to change some of the core aspects about him that got him drafted.


Agreed. Lots of ego in pro sports. It’s the one thing wrong when people say you always take the BPA, cause sometimes the best player might not work with your team and how you do things, but a guy a couple slots down would work perfectly and produce way better.

It’s kinda like in football when teams take this or that player but that player doesn’t work in the scheme that team runs. Then they do awful and everyone is like well he was a bust. Wouldn’t it make a lot more sense to take the best player that has already shown success running the style you want?

I feel like Elias and crew do a good job of this, and get torn apart every year. They know they have certain biases and are looking for certain skill sets that match what they like. They aren’t afraid to “reach” a few spots down to get a player they feel will be a fit vs taking a guy and trying to force him to change something that helped him be that highly touted. I think it’s more of this why they took Heston, and Cowser and they skew towards college position players.
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#57 BSLRoseKatz

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Posted 10 September 2023 - 06:58 AM

7.16 ERA/5.18 FIP after yesterday's start, was 4.43 ERA/4.21 FIP with St. Louis


she/her


#58 BaltBird 24

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Posted 10 September 2023 - 08:28 AM

I was on board with giving him a long look toward an extension when the trade was made. May end up being a rare Elias L trade.

#59 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 10 September 2023 - 08:38 AM

These things happen in SSS. Giolito has been a dumpster fire since being traded. Same with Robertson. Lorenzen has an ERA of 5 with Philly. I think the one name at the time we at least heard and thought was somewhat possible that still is a regret is Verlander. That vet presence and a guy who has been there and done it repeatedly wouldve been big.

#60 mweb08

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Posted 10 September 2023 - 09:05 AM

Eduardo has been solid.




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