123 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Frazier in the Vavra role would be fine. I'd rather spend elsewhere and just let Vavra do it, but I do think Frazier is an upgrade over Vavra, especially defensively.

My problem is deciding on Frazier in an everyday role over either a more significant veteran upgrade or rolling with Urias or one of the highly touted minor leaguers.

As far as the rookies struggling, better now than August or September, IMO. I also don't really consider Gunnar and Stowers rookies, though both are certainly struggling.

They are young unestablished guys. There is no logical reason to be bitching about Frazier right now. Again, you cant risk 3 or 4 spots in a lineup to unestablished players. You all wanted Unnar and Stowers starting every day this past offseason. I did to but I also said I didnt want more than 2 of these types in my lineup every day breaking ST. Its too many and your setting yourself up for too many guys getting on the job training while trying to win ballgames. We should be lucky enough to have Frazier serve in a super uti role come Sept. One or 2 of these AAA guys will get there shot between now and then. Hopefully they run with the opportunity.

[Mackus]

4 rookies tops, right?  And only if we consider Gunnar and Stowers as rookies which is a bit eye-rolly.  Why saying 5 or 6?

 

Gunnar, Stowers, Rodriguez, and Westburg/Ortiz.  Who else is anyone asking to get time?  Maybe Cowser, but I think that's instead of Stowers not in addition to, much like the Westburg OR Ortiz option.  And that option is only being forwarded because Urias got hurt.

 

And people only want these guys because they might project better than what is here (Hays, Santander, Frazier, Kremer, etc...not saying I think that about each guy).  I think many people would choose better established MLB players over some of these rookies.  Urias over Westburg doesn't bother me at all.  Just not meh guys like Frazier.

[makoman]

Yes, everyone wants 6 struggling rookies in the lineup, and rookies have never been good. Can you ever stop being disingenuous?

[TwentyThirtyFive]

4 rookies tops, right? And only if we consider Gunnar and Stowers as rookies which is a bit eye-rolly. Why saying 5 or 6?

Gunnar, Stowers, Rodriguez, and Westburg/Ortiz. Who else is anyone asking to get time? Maybe Cowser, but I think that's instead of Stowers not in addition to, much like the Westburg OR Ortiz option. And that option is only being forwarded because Urias got hurt.

My f'ing god. We getting technical. They are clearly young and unestablished. This is a bunch of nonsense. The "young guys" playing are struggling, Frazier is 3rd on the teamin WAR and brings a good vet presence, the team is winning and still all the bitching because people are still hung up on the offseason and cant admit this acquistion is serving its purpose.

[russsnyder]

Yes, these facts are both true. But they have nothing to do with my point, which is that his $8M would have been better allocated to another area of need.

I disagree.

[Mackus]

I guess its technical to say that 4 and 6 are different numbers.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yes, everyone wants 6 struggling rookies in the lineup, and rookies have never been good. Can you ever stop being disingenuous?

Who the f said 6 in a lineup. Get shit straight. Im not the one who is constantly wrong. I said in the offseason I didnt want more than 2 young guys breaking camp as every day players. There are a ton of people here who wanted to break with 3 and more who wouldve been just fine having at least a 4th in Cowser playing for Santander or Hays either to start the year or by the end of April.


I thought some of you were willing to admit that something you hated in the offseason could turn out to be a positive. Thats obviously not the case. Too many caught up in pure FO/ownership hate. Sad

[Mackus]

I think the team would be better if we replaced Frazier with Ortiz or Westburg as an everyday player.  I'd chose Frazier over Vavra as a bench player, though.  I'd go back to Urias over all of them once he's healthy, unless one of the rookies take off.

[russsnyder]

My f'ing god. We getting technical. They are clearly young and unestablished. This is a bunch of nonsense. The "young guys" playing are struggling, Frazier is 3rd on the teamin WAR and brings a good vet presence, the team is winning and still all the bitching because people are still hung up on the offseason and cant admit this acquistion is serving its purpose.

Frazier is a serious upgrade upgrade over Odor who was the primary second baseman coming out of spring training last year.

Ken made a good point a few posts back. The 8 million that they spent on Frazier shouldn't have kept them from spending more in another area. (Like starting pitching.) This move has worked out ok thus far.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I said 5 or 6 roster spots not 6 starting spots or 6 positional players. Dont twist my words. Gunnar, Stowers, Westburg, GRod were 4 right there that everyone wanted. Everyone. So Im to think there werent calls for Hall, Ortiz, Cowser, Kjerstad to break camp too. Im not saying we are upnto 8 now. Im saying in addition tonthe 4 everyone was calling for there werent also calls for 1 or 2 more.

[Mackus]

Frazier is a serious upgrade upgrade over Odor who was the primary second baseman coming out of spring training last year.

 

Do you prefer Frazier or Urias at 2B?  Assuming Gunnar and Mateo on the left side.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think the team would be better if we replaced Frazier with Ortiz or Westburg as an everyday player. I'd chose Frazier over Vavra as a bench player, though. I'd go back to Urias over all of them once he's healthy, unless one of the rookies take off.

I absolutely disagrer the team is better right now replacing Frazier with Ortiz or Westburg. Maybe Im wrong. I can actually admit that but I would expect struggles and lumps making the jump wheras Frazier's every day presence is clearly a plus. Ricker asked well when is a guy ever ready or when do you give him time to break in? Well for one injuries could bring that on. That would be unfortunate. The other hopeful option is Gunnar settles in. Maybe even Stowers settles in. Now there is wiggle room to have an Ortiz or Westburg come up and take lumps on the job and you dont have 2 or 3 pressing young guys in one lineup.

[Mackus]

While we're being technical, Frazier is 5th on the team in bWAR and 11th in fWAR.  Not 3rd in either.

[Mackus]

I absolutely disagrer the team is better right now replacing Frazier with Ortiz or Westburg. Maybe Im wrong. I can actually admit that but I would expect struggles and lumps making the jump wheras Frazier's every day presence is clearly a plus. Ricker asked well when is a guy ever ready or when do you give him time to break in? Well for one injuries could bring that on. That would be unfortunate. The other hopeful option is Gunnar settles in. Maybe even Stowers settles in. Now there is wiggle room to have an Ortiz or Westburg come up and take lumps on the job and you dont have 2 or 3 pressing young guys in one lineup.

 

Frazier plays good D, so that would be tough for a rookie to match.  Though Ortiz has a sterling reputation in that regard.  But I don't think a 675 OPS is something a rookie can't replicate pretty close to out of the gate.  And even if they are well below that early on, how much does the early phase help them adjust and then make bigger contributions later?  

[You Play to Win the Game]

So anyway, none of this has changed my viewpoint on all that. And also, in a world of duality, I’ve given mad props to Elias throughout this season and am very much enjoying it.

Really failing to see how this makes me a bad fan, but whatever. Onto the next one.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

While we're being technical, Frazier is 5th on the team in bWAR and 11th in fWAR. Not 3rd in either.

Rofl. Nice. MackAss with the MacGif I guess. Well done

[TwentyThirtyFive]

So anyway, none of this has changed my viewpoint on all that. And also, in a world of duality, I’ve given mad props to Elias throughout this season and am very much enjoying it.

Really failing to see how this makes me a bad fan, but whatever. Onto the next one.

Who the F has ever said or implied you are a bad fan. Im done with you labeling things a way you think I put on you. Do I think youre off on an opinion or misguided or even biased. Yes. That does not equal bad fan.

[makoman]

Frazier plays good D, so that would be tough for a rookie to match.  Though Ortiz has a sterling reputation in that regard.  But I don't think a 675 OPS is something a rookie can't replicate pretty close to out of the gate.  And even if they are well below that early on, how much does the early phase help them adjust and then make bigger contributions later?  

Gunnar has been bad enough that some people want to send him down, yet he and Frazier have the same wRC+. Frazier is up by 3 in  OPS+

 

Frazier also is a negative on defense per fangraphs and OAA. Not sure what defensive metrics are best these days.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Who the F has every said or implied you are a bad fan. Im done with you labeling things a way you think I put on you. Do I think youre off on an opinion or misguided or even biased. Yes. That does not equal bad fan.

You need to understand things like tone, condescension, etc. The words being said pale in comparison to the way they’re presented. So to answer your question, you have. That’s what you do everytime you go at someone so hard over a petty sports disagreement.

I laughed when I saw russsnyder’s post earlier that was just: “I disagree.”

I was like, where’s the insult?

To recap just in this thread, just since 2:29 today:
“All this was laid out” lol by who? Who is the authority on this?
“You’d think you’d understand”
“So what are you on about?”
“And we still got all this damn angst” More like legitimate concerns, but gaslight away if you want
“I’m waiting for the stupid post that tells me about AAA numbers”
All of post #39
“There is no logical reason to bitch about Frazier.”
“This is a bunch of nonsense… this team is winning and still all the bitching” or discussing legitimate concerns. More gaslighting.
“I’m not the one who is constantly wrong”
“Too many caught up in pure FO/Ownership hate. Sad” or discussing legitimate concerns, while actually giving quite a bit of credit where it’s due. But more gaslighting.

With that tone and messaging, what exactly are you saying? Trust me I know I have my shit too. But come on man.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

You need to understand things like tone, condescension, etc. The words being said pale in comparison to the way they’re presented. So to answer your question, you have. That’s what you do everytime you go at someone so hard over a petty sports disagreement.

I laughed when I saw russsnyder’s post earlier that was just: “I disagree.”

I was like, where’s the insult?

Weve talked about all of this privately. Im aware of what you and surely others take issue with. Im still not going to have you saying I think you are a bad fan. Thats not true.