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#61 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:33 AM

You guys want an admission. If I havent essentially said as much enough. Free Agency '23 did not meet my expectations. I was wrong and I have been annoyed and disappointed. It doesnt change my overall outlook on where this organization is and what direction it is headed. And while I may not have specefically ever said pre FA that I was confident in the core we had in house to contend, my positivity and the way Ive gushed over the player development and players graduating or on the cusp would have told you that.

#62 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:34 AM

You guys want an admission. If I havent essentially said as much enough. Free Agency '23 did not meet my expectations. I was wrong and I have been annoyed and disappointed. It doesnt change my overall outlook on where this organization is and what direction it is headed. And while I may not have specefically ever said pre FA that I was confident in the core we had in house to contend, my positivity and the way Ive gushed over the player development and players graduating or on the cusp would have told you that.

I don't know a poster here who doesn't feel the same way about your last sentence.



#63 BobPhelan

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:35 AM

So, all of this is reasonable. I don't feel exactly the same, but the position makes sense.

With all of that said, if not this year, when are they going to feel like they're "right on the cusp?" Why would this not be the year? What are they waiting for, coming off of a tremendously improved season with exciting young players all over the roster? What is so dejecting for me is that it seems obvious that the time to add legit veteran talent is now. Not next year. Not 2025. Now. After wasting seasons in the name of acquiring premium draft capital, it now feels like they're wasting another for no reason at all by making the decision to not try very hard to improve.

I will never complain about the acquisition and development of a pipeline of talent. For years (decades?) that had been my biggest concern, and for the first time it appears like it's truly being done differently. But, you can't always play for next year. At some point you have to invest in who you are today, not who you might be tomorrow. The ultimate goal is to win a world series, not be a serviceable, watchable product. That is very likely not happening without outside help.

I agree that some of the barbs are a little over the top, and I'm guilty of them at times as well. However, I think, while they're likely intentionally hyperbolic, they're rooted in a real fear that watching these young stars get traded with a year or more service time left is an inevitability because of the lack of investment. There's been no indicators yet that this team will do what is necessary to sign premium talent or extend their own. Until they prove otherwise, they will be very hard to trust.


I believe the time to buy in and heavily invest is now and with a big trade for a great SP that could still happen. But at the same time a year from now 7 or 8 players in our top 10 prospects will realistically have graduated or close to it. One more year would help the evaluation process of what to target and who to try and extend.

#64 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:38 AM


I don't know a poster here who doesn't feel the same way about your last sentence.

So you think we are going to contend and continue to churn out ML ready prospects this year yet all you want to do is be mad about FA

#65 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:39 AM

So you think we are going to contend and continue to churn out ML rrady prospects this year yet all you want to do is be mad about FA

I am mad that our genius GM doesn't think we can win the division this year, and has thus decided not to build a more complete major league roster this year. It's really simple. That isn't just FA's, it's trades too. 

 

The fact that you can't wrap your head around why people are mad is truly mind blowing to me. I just don't get it. But maybe we should just educate ourselves.



#66 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:43 AM

I am mad that our genius GM doesn't think we can win the division this year, and has thus decided not to build a more complete major league roster this year. It's really simple. That isn't just FA's, it's trades too.

The fact that you can't wrap your head around why people are mad is truly mind blowing to me. I just don't get it. But maybe we should just educate ourselves.

Meh. You think we have a great chance to win a title in the next 5 years. If you want to continually be butthurt over '22 and not spending in FA '23 I just dont have a response for you. Enjoy the good times that are on the way. Thats all I can say

#67 Mackus

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:45 AM

So you think we are going to contend and continue to churn out ML ready prospects this year yet all you want to do is be mad about FA

 

Don't wanna speak for Ricker, but I'm both excited about the guys we already have and very upset that we didn't make any effort to supplement the roster to optimize the chances for the coming season.

 

It was a perfect opportunity to make one or two big splashes and instead they've done nothing to improve the front half of the roster.  And I think Elias' lack of valuation of the coming season is the main reason why.  Ownership certainly a factor as well, especially as it pertains to really huge splashes like Correa or Rodon, but I think that Elias could have done some of the middle tier things like Bassitt or Abreu and chose not to because he didn't think enough about the team we currently have to value the addition of those guys for 2023 over the potential risk of having money committed to them in 2025.

 

I'll be excited to watch the guys we have compete this season once the games begin.  I think they have a chance.  But no matter how good they end up being I'll remain disappointed that they got no support from their management to try and improve their chances.


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#68 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 09:46 AM

Meh. You think we have a great chance to win a title in the next 5 years. If you want to continually be butthurt over '22 and not spending in FA '23 I just dont have a response for you. Enjoy the good times that are on the way. Thats all I can say

It's unacceptable to not try in '22 or '23 too. Nothing will ever change that. And rest assured, I will enjoy the run just as much as those who have educated themselves as to why Elias is the GOAT.



#69 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 10:31 AM

Don't wanna speak for Ricker, but I'm both excited about the guys we already have and very upset that we didn't make any effort to supplement the roster to optimize the chances for the coming season.

It was a perfect opportunity to make one or two big splashes and instead they've done nothing to improve the front half of the roster. And I think Elias' lack of valuation of the coming season is the main reason why. Ownership certainly a factor as well, especially as it pertains to really huge splashes like Correa or Rodon, but I think that Elias could have done some of the middle tier things like Bassitt or Abreu and chose not to because he didn't think enough about the team we currently have to value the addition of those guys for 2023 over the potential risk of having money committed to them in 2025.

I'll be excited to watch the guys we have compete this season once the games begin. I think they have a chance. But no matter how good they end up being I'll remain disappointed that they got no support from their management to try and improve their chances.

I dont disagee other than to say Im not very mad. Im def annoyed. Absolutely agree it was a good opportunity to shop in the midde tier of FA. We could argue or speculate why that didnt happen but ultimately we both agree that likely falls on Elias and not ownership
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#70 weird-O

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 10:41 AM

It was different than years past. Nonetheless Ill say for no less than the 20th time now that free agency was a disappointment and that aspect of the offseason gets a poor grade. How many more times are you guys going to ignore me saying that.

Results matter. And this year's results are exactly the same as his previous years. Checking in, isn't being active. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Also, early this morning, you said (and it isn't the first time) that FA isn't all it's cracked up to be, and that it's fool's gold. So as long as you keep expressing the sentiment, that getting involved in the FA market is a bad idea, you'll probably keep being reminded that you're changing your tune to match what Elias does. 


Good news! I saw a dog today.


#71 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 11:30 AM

It was different than years past. Nonetheless Ill say for no less than the 20th time now that free agency was a disappointment and that aspect of the offseason gets a poor grade. How many more times are you guys going to ignore me saying that.

So you're disappointed in their actions in FA but also believe FA is fools gold?

Those two things don't align.
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#72 dude

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 11:32 AM

Please expand.

 

I already have in the 17 v T5 thread.

 

If you can identify and develop Talent then it doesn't matter where you draft.

If you can't identify and develop Talent then it still doesn't matter where you draft.

Rebuilding only gives you one unique pick and the history of that pick isn't that great, on average.  If you only need one or two above average players from 'rebuilding' then just go buy them, build whatever opportunity you can for a 2-4 year window and build everything else exactly the same.

 

The downstream opportunity to compete (sustained winning) isn't about your start point It literally has nothing to do with your start point so if you don't need the start point to get there, you never needed the start point to get there.  The key is to build a good Organization.  Teams that are good don't talk about rebuilding they just keep being good and TB, STL, LAD span the market impact so it's not tied to that.

 

There's no causality between rebuilding and success....if you can have success long-term, you never needed to rebuild because those days (with or without rebuilding) are exactly the same.



#73 BobPhelan

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 01:22 PM

I don’t see that as very related to my comment that I think they can keep the elite talent pipeline flowing.

#74 dude

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 02:07 PM

I don’t see that as very related to my comment that I think they can keep the elite talent pipeline flowing.

 

If the Orioles win more games and lose the advantage of early draft position, how can you keep the elite talent pipeline flowing? 



#75 BobPhelan

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 03:52 PM

If the Orioles win more games and lose the advantage of early draft position, how can you keep the elite talent pipeline flowing?


Scouting and player development.

#76 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 13 January 2023 - 04:14 PM

Scouting and player development.

 

Don't normally like to speak for others, but it just goes to the point he's made here (repeatedly) that if you can sustain an elite talent pipeline with scouting and development while drafting in the mid-late portion of every round, then you never needed to spend those seasons fielding the worst team in the league to build the pipeline in the first place.

 

Of course, I'm guessing you already knew that.  ;)

 

And I imagine all of us know the reason the losing happened had nothing to do with building a talent pipeline and everything to do with clearing the deck of high-priced contracts so ownership could hoard money for a few years.


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#77 BobPhelan

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 09:33 AM

Yeah I get what he’s saying. No need to go in circles on that. But now I think the scouting and player development is proven.

#78 Mike in STL

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 10:16 AM

So you're disappointed in their actions in FA but also believe FA is fools gold?

Those two things don't align.


That’s cause he exhibits troll behavior. Taking enough stances that you can’t keep them straight.
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#79 dude

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 12:01 PM

You asked me to ...

Please expand.

 

....so then I don't understand this comment.  You do understand the logic flaw?

Yeah I get what he’s saying. No need to go in circles on that. But now I think the scouting and player development is proven.

 

You don't have to lose to prove your scouting and player development.  None of the 'rebuilding' teams won because of rebuilding....but 99.99% of the community buys and sells that causality, but it's a myth.

 

So if the current FO didn't prove successful, then we just throw away 4 or 6 seasons, that's cool, let's try it again?



#80 BobPhelan

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Posted 14 January 2023 - 09:37 PM

I didn’t realize you were just banging the same drum at the time. Early on before everything was in place maybe the earlier picks helped but I think we’re past that point whether you believe it was necessary or not. No need to rehash.




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