128 replies to this topic

[jamesdean]

Does that company have a hard salary cap? A budget, yes, but a hard cap? Probably not.

 

Brady never had a cap share of more than 12.21 percent--and that was only in 2018. In four of the Pats' other championship years, it was below nine percent. Compare that to Peyton Manning, who exceeded 13.1 percent in eight of his 18 seasons and won just two. There was an interesting piece I came across not long ago (and if I can find it again, I'll share it) which argued that once a player's cap share reaches 13.1 percent, it becomes virtually impossible to win a Super Bowl. 

 

Now to be fair, there have been teams that reached a Super Bowl with one player reaching that percentage, but regardless, the argument is something with which most fans (and NFL GMs) would agree. It's never a good idea to expend too much of a team's cap space on just one guy.

 

Structured properly (again, I'd reference the Patrick Mahomes deal), it's possible to give a player the contract he deserves without completely compromising the club's ability to put adequate talent around him.

For me, the tell tale sign that the Ravens had probably pulled the sheet over the deal with Lamar was when they got Smith.  It's just not realistic that they'd sign both of them long term and why trade for Smith for a one year rental?  What does that prove?  

[JStruds]

Anyone here give back money to their employers so that the company can do better? I don't.

Brady had a billionaire wife, allows for some financial flexibility. I don't begrudge any player for getting all they can

The point about Giselle making millions is valid. But the other part is a little shaky. I'm betting most of us are talking maybe 10K - 30K bonuses/raises etc. which is really big money for most people. The difference between a 25K raise and say a $20M demand vs a $15M offer (for example) boggles the minds of we normal wage earners. It feels not like giving back, but allowing a salary capped employer to sign more support for a key piece.

[makoman]

Does that company have a hard salary cap? A budget, yes, but a hard cap? Probably not.

 

Brady never had a cap share of more than 12.21 percent--and that was only in 2018. In four of the Pats' other championship years, it was below nine percent. Compare that to Peyton Manning, who exceeded 13.1 percent in eight of his 18 seasons and won just two. There was an interesting piece I came across not long ago (and if I can find it again, I'll share it) which argued that once a player's cap share reaches 13.1 percent, it becomes virtually impossible to win a Super Bowl. 

 

Now to be fair, there have been teams that reached a Super Bowl with one player reaching that percentage, but regardless, the argument is something with which most fans (and NFL GMs) would agree. It's never a good idea to expend too much of a team's cap space on just one guy.

 

Structured properly (again, I'd reference the Patrick Mahomes deal), it's possible to give a player the contract he deserves without completely compromising the club's ability to put adequate talent around him.

Well Mahomes is at 17% this year and they got the 1 seed. I guess we'll see.

 

I think the past percentages vs. Super Bowl success is more correlation than causation. High % #s for QBs were not as common back then. And I think the Patriots had success because Brady is the GOAT, not because his salary allowed them to add like one additional decent starter (like Kevin Zeitler is 4.4% of the cap).

[Mackus]

Does that company have a hard salary cap? A budget, yes, but a hard cap? Probably not.

Brady never had a cap share of more than 12.21 percent--and that was only in 2018. In four of the Pats' other championship years, it was below nine percent. Compare that to Peyton Manning, who exceeded 13.1 percent in eight of his 18 seasons and won just two. There was an interesting piece I came across not long ago (and if I can find it again, I'll share it) which argued that once a player's cap share reaches 13.1 percent, it becomes virtually impossible to win a Super Bowl.

Now to be fair, there have been teams that reached a Super Bowl with one player reaching that percentage, but regardless, the argument is something with which most fans (and NFL GMs) would agree. It's never a good idea to expend too much of a team's cap space on just one guy.

Structured properly (again, I'd reference the Patrick Mahomes deal), it's possible to give a player the contract he deserves without completely compromising the club's ability to put adequate talent around him.

So how much should a smart QB give back?

Lets say Lamar can get $48M right now. How much should he give back to the billionaire owner out of good will? $10M? $20M?

[makoman]

So how much should a smart QB give back?

Lets say Lamar can get $48M right now. How much should he give back to the billionaire owner out of good will? $10M? $20M?

It's not really fair that Lamar (or any QB) is the one that has to give money away to help the team just because his position is in highest demand. 

 

Maybe Stanley should redo his deal and give back several million for missing a couple years. Maybe Marlon should give some back because he wasn't an All Pro last year. Maybe Boyle should have taken a couple million less, he knew he'd be out for a year when he signed his extension. Etc. etc.  

[CantonJester]

So how much should a smart QB give back?

Lets say Lamar can get $48M right now. How much should he give back to the billionaire owner out of good will? $10M? $20M?

 

These are all good questions to ask, but it sucks for Raven fans they need to be answered in Baltimore.  

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Ill warn everyone. Denver was a model franchise for a long time. Since Peyton retired they have struggled to win and find a QB. NE obviously a model franchise for a long time. Seem stuck in mediocrity since Brady left. At least for the foreseeable future. Same with Pitt. Feels like mediocrity for the immediate future despite being a model franchise. If there is a thought the Ravens will find a QB that can make us a contender just because we are a model franchise that generally drafts well and has hit on our last 2 QBs I got news for you. It could happen but its not likely.  Thats what you are facing if you trade Lamar. THe counter is well NE, Den, and Pitt all had guys retire. THey didnt get a draft haul the way we will get a draft haul. Thats true, but we still arent likely going to be able to move into the top 2 or 3 spots to draft one of the top guys. Paying Garrapalo or Carr a pretty penny at 80% of what Lamar will make is also dangerous. Assuming we could even get either of them to sign here. Actually it seems Carr will be traded. Jimmy G at least is a FA. 

 

 

I say all of the above to conclude that Im not against listening to offers on Lamar but Im still very much worried if we trade him that we are setting ourselves up for extended mediocrity if not worse than mediocrity. Our best chance to win a Championship the next 2-3 years is with Lamar. No doubt in my mind. If we do extend Lamar there does need to be a change in offensive philosophy. We need to see if Lamar can transition to being a bit more of a pocket QB. Not nearly as many  designed runs for him. Spread teams out. More of a Eagles approach and what they do with Hurts. Roman ball has to go.

[ivanbalt]

Ill warn everyone. Denver was a model franchise for a long time. Since Peyton retired they have struggled to win and find a QB. NE obviously a model franchise for a long time. Seem stuck in mediocrity since Brady left. At least for the foreseeable future. Same with Pitt. Feels like mediocrity for the immediate future despite being a model franchise. If there is a thought the Ravens will find a QB that can make us a contender just because we are a model franchise that generally drafts well and has hit on our last 2 QBs I got news for you. It could happen but its not likely.  Thats what you are facing if you trade Lamar. THe counter is well NE, Den, and Pitt all had guys retire. THey didnt get a draft haul the way we will get a draft haul. Thats true, but we still arent likely going to be able to move into the top 2 or 3 spots to draft one of the top guys. Paying Garrapalo or Carr a pretty penny at 80% of what Lamar will make is also dangerous. Assuming we could even get either of them to sign here. Actually it seems Carr will be traded. Jimmy G at least is a FA. 

 

 

I say all of the above to conclude that Im not against listening to offers on Lamar but Im still very much worried if we trade him that we are setting ourselves up for extended mediocrity if not worse than mediocrity. Our best chance to win a Championship the next 2-3 years is with Lamar. No doubt in my mind. If we do extend Lamar there does need to be a change in offensive philosophy. We need to see if Lamar can transition to being a bit more of a pocket QB. Not nearly as many  designed runs for him. Spread teams out. More of a Eagles approach and what they do with Hurts. Roman ball has to go.

To be fair, Denver has been a QB train wreck since Elway retired other than the few years of Manning.

[jamesdean]

Ill warn everyone. Denver was a model franchise for a long time. Since Peyton retired they have struggled to win and find a QB. NE obviously a model franchise for a long time. Seem stuck in mediocrity since Brady left. At least for the foreseeable future. Same with Pitt. Feels like mediocrity for the immediate future despite being a model franchise. If there is a thought the Ravens will find a QB that can make us a contender just because we are a model franchise that generally drafts well and has hit on our last 2 QBs I got news for you. It could happen but its not likely.  Thats what you are facing if you trade Lamar. THe counter is well NE, Den, and Pitt all had guys retire. THey didnt get a draft haul the way we will get a draft haul. Thats true, but we still arent likely going to be able to move into the top 2 or 3 spots to draft one of the top guys. Paying Garrapalo or Carr a pretty penny at 80% of what Lamar will make is also dangerous. Assuming we could even get either of them to sign here. Actually it seems Carr will be traded. Jimmy G at least is a FA. 

 

 

I say all of the above to conclude that Im not against listening to offers on Lamar but Im still very much worried if we trade him that we are setting ourselves up for extended mediocrity if not worse than mediocrity. Our best chance to win a Championship the next 2-3 years is with Lamar. No doubt in my mind. If we do extend Lamar there does need to be a change in offensive philosophy. We need to see if Lamar can transition to being a bit more of a pocket QB. Not nearly as many  designed runs for him. Spread teams out. More of a Eagles approach and what they do with Hurts. Roman ball has to go.

You make some valid points and I agree with much of what you said but trying to turn Lamar into a pocket QB could very well expedite the mediocrity you're concerned about.  

[Biggsy]

Ill warn everyone. Denver was a model franchise for a long time. Since Peyton retired they have struggled to win and find a QB. NE obviously a model franchise for a long time. Seem stuck in mediocrity since Brady left. At least for the foreseeable future. Same with Pitt. Feels like mediocrity for the immediate future despite being a model franchise. If there is a thought the Ravens will find a QB that can make us a contender just because we are a model franchise that generally drafts well and has hit on our last 2 QBs I got news for you. It could happen but its not likely. Thats what you are facing if you trade Lamar. THe counter is well NE, Den, and Pitt all had guys retire. THey didnt get a draft haul the way we will get a draft haul. Thats true, but we still arent likely going to be able to move into the top 2 or 3 spots to draft one of the top guys. Paying Garrapalo or Carr a pretty penny at 80% of what Lamar will make is also dangerous. Assuming we could even get either of them to sign here. Actually it seems Carr will be traded. Jimmy G at least is a FA.


I say all of the above to conclude that Im not against listening to offers on Lamar but Im still very much worried if we trade him that we are setting ourselves up for extended mediocrity if not worse than mediocrity. Our best chance to win a Championship the next 2-3 years is with Lamar. No doubt in my mind. If we do extend Lamar there does need to be a change in offensive philosophy. We need to see if Lamar can transition to being a bit more of a pocket QB. Not nearly as many designed runs for him. Spread teams out. More of a Eagles approach and what they do with Hurts. Roman ball has to go.

In hindsight, Ravens did themselves a disservice by keeping Roman this season. They should have brought in an OC, that had RPO's and options built into a more traditional offense.

With that said, Lamar ran am NFL style offense in college to near perfection.

I agree with your point about letting Lamar go. NE is back to mediocrity. Denver has been terrible. Indy has struggled non-stop after Luck at the QB position. Pitt has been very average since Roethlisberger regressed to league average.

NE, Indy and Pitt all are similar FO models, known for their drafting prowess, right on par with Baltimore. Because of that, they consistently put a good enough overall team to out themselves in the 12-20 range of the draft, but no where close enough to being a true contender. But no where close enough in the draft to take a blue chip QB prospect either. That's exactly what Baltimore will do. Be in the middle of the first. Praying on guys like Mac Jones or Kenny Pickett to exceed expectations.

This thought that you can just walk away from the sure thing, and simply bring in a vet or draft another stud, and get similar results, is borderline fantasy. A guy like Carr or someone similar, might save you $10 to $5 million a year over Lamar. Ok. Great. We get 60% of the production and ability, for 8% less money. Not ideal.

Drafting and developing a QB isn't exactly easy, despite what some here may think. Even someone like Stroud or Young could easily be the next Zach Wilson/Sam Darnold.

Personally, I roll with the sure thing. The known talent. The guy you've consistently won with over the last 5 seasons. I'll happily pay a little more a season, to know I'm set at the most important position.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Sure thing in what way? He’s missed 30% of the games the past 2 years and has had prolonged bouts of mediocrity each of those 2 seasons when he was healthy.

Yes, not finding a replacement would suck and present different problems. But what we have right now is a problem in and of itself.

But I’ve always said I’d be willing to resign him with a new system. The problem is, now you’re experimenting with a new system (without WR’s) with far less cap flexibility.

[Mackus]

Sure thing in what way? He’s missed 30% of the games the past 2 years and has had prolonged bouts of mediocrity each of those 2 seasons when he was healthy.

Yes, not finding a replacement would suck and present different problems. But what we have right now is a problem in and of itself.

But I’ve always said I’d be willing to resign him with a new system. The problem is, now you’re experimenting with a new system (without WR’s) with far less cap flexibility.

 

I don't really think we need a completely different system.  Similar, perhaps nearly identical, system but with more logical emphasis based on gameflow and better designed passing plays.

 

Essentially, Roman's system but without the seemingly uncorrectable flaws.  

[Biggsy]

Sure thing in what way? He’s missed 30% of the games the past 2 years and has had prolonged bouts of mediocrity each of those 2 seasons when he was healthy.

Yes, not finding a replacement would suck and present different problems. But what we have right now is a problem in and of itself.

But I’ve always said I’d be willing to resign him with a new system. The problem is, now you’re experimenting with a new system (without WR’s) with far less cap flexibility.

Sure thing, as in guaranteed top 10 QB under center.

The injury argument holds merit now. Back to back seasons of significant time missed. But the bouts of mediocrity are offset by bouts of being the best football player in the NFL.

When Lamar is at 100%, and playing at his best, he is legit unstoppable. And he has given those type of games the past 2 seasons. Even with the games where it looks like he's a rookie again at times. The fact that he's already done it for a full season in the past, shows he can consistently give those unstoppable type of efforts when healthy.

With a rookie, or Derek Carr type, you don't get that kind of ability under center.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Sure thing, as in guaranteed top 10 QB under center.

The injury argument holds merit now. Back to back seasons of significant time missed. But the bouts of mediocrity are offset by bouts of being the best football player in the NFL.

When Lamar is at 100%, and playing at his best, he is legit unstoppable. And he has given those type of games the past 2 seasons. Even with the games where it looks like he's a rookie again at times. The fact that he's already done it for a full season in the past, shows he can consistently give those unstoppable type of efforts when healthy.

With a rookie, or Derek Carr type, you don't get that kind of ability under center.

Disagree with this. The when Lamar is at 100% thing has been less and less as the years go on, that's just fact. And I want consistency. At the cap hit he'll soon be getting, I'd rather have Lamar be 80% of himself 90% of his time. Then 100% of himself 15% of the time and 50-60% the other 85%. Yeah, the super man stuff is fun, I love it. Very exciting stuff. I want to know I have the better QB for sure that day, other than those couple times of year you face Mahomes or Allen or whoever is scorching hot that year. Lamar has been too inconsistent for me the past couple years, and the injuries don't help the story. We all agree on his upside.

[Slidemaster]

The more he gets injured, the worse he'll get. You can't keep suffering leg and ankle injuries and continue to heal to 100%. They take their toll, and he's not going to get better.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I don't really think we need a completely different system. Similar, perhaps nearly identical, system but with more logical emphasis based on gameflow and better designed passing plays.

Essentially, Roman's system but without the seemingly uncorrectable flaws.

I dont think we need to or should try to make him a pocket QB and us a pass heavy team. Do think we need to limit the designed runs more. I cant say Ive watched Philly a ton but similar to what they do with Hurts. I know for a fact Lamar has more arm talent than Hurts. No reason he cant have as much or more throwing success.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I dont think we need to or should try to make him a pocket QB and us a pass heavy team. Do think we need to limit the designed runs more. I cant say Ive watched Philly a ton but similar to what they do with Hurts. I know for a fact Lamar has more arm talent than Hurts. No reason he cant have as much or more throwing success.

Hurts has more carries than I realized. Its just feels different and less designed. I think we still need to lean on the RBs but the Roman system needs to go. Agree we need a more sophisticated passing attack. Ill believe this is the case even if we make a run this year

[Biggsy]

Jets reportedly already announcing their interest in Lamar Jackson. According to the report, they view him as a wild card, and if he became available, would be willing to offer "a very, very, very compelling offer."

Be nice if it waited until the official offseason. But good to know we won't be completely devoid of options.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

We would get a pretty penny for Lamar. No worries at all if we decide to go that route

[mdrunning]

We would get a pretty penny for Lamar. No worries at all if we decide to go that route

You may very well be right, but I'm still not so sure. I'd be plenty worried.