62 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

More difficult choice. Westburg or Norby?

Norby has the better potential with the bat IMO. He's also always been a 2B though that doesn't mean Westburg isnt an equal or better defender at 2b

[BSLChrisStoner]

More difficult choice. Westburg or Norby?

Westburg for me, but whatever.   Could still have both.   Westburg 3rd, Henderson SS, Norby 2nd, and Mayo 1st / DH. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I've constantly argued for Westburg and Kremer.

 

I don't know how the Frazier signing (for 8M!!!) isn't telling Westburg to go to AAA.  You still have Urias.  Norby is going to be 2B at AAA so I'm not sure what we're doing with Vavra....seems like a guy without a home now and they did that intentionally (that was a choice).

 

Bumgarner's ceiling is a younger left-handed Verlander.  You can't wait to buy high.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I've constantly argued for Westburg and Kremer.

 

I don't know how the Frazier signing (for 8M!!!) isn't telling Westburg to go to AAA.  You still have Urias.  Norby is going to be 2B at AAA so I'm not sure what we're doing with Vavra....seems like a guy without a home now and they did that intentionally (that was a choice).

 

Bumgarner's ceiling is a younger left-handed Verlander.  You can't wait to buy high.

 

Bumgarner's upside is not a younger left-handed Verlander. 

Verlander had among the best stuff of his generation.  Even when that stepped back, he could overwhelm most. 
Bumgarner's fb creeped back to his career average (91) in '22, but he's underwhelming stuff wise at this point. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I'd go for Gallen.  

AZ is not competing in the West anytime soon. 

 

Diamondbacks could have: 

Hall
Cowser
Mayo
Norby
Rom

 

That's a lot of talent and team control for AZ...  and the O's get an ace with multiple years of control.

[dude]

Westburg for me, but whatever.   Could still have both.   Westburg 3rd, Henderson SS, Norby 2nd, and Mayo 1st / DH. 

 

In general, I'm ok with that, but it still has consequences.  You'd rather trade Westburg's RHed power (minimized in OPaCY) for Mateo's speed and defense.  You aren't just adding, everything you do may subtract too.  Agree that Mayo is already looking like a 1B, regardless of his 3B defense because he could be here sooner.

 

At some point it's Mayo vs Mountcaslte.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

You dont need to trade all that goodness for Gallen. And Im not even as high as most on Hall, Cowser, and Mayo.

[Mackus]

Again, why trade anything for Bumgarner when you can probably just have him for free?  

[BSLChrisStoner]

You dont need to trade all that goodness for Gallen. And Im not even as high as most on Hall, Cowser, and Mayo.

Well, if you can get him for less.... great, even better.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Well, if you can get him for less.... great, even better.

I like Galllen as a target. Not sure Ari has interest in trading for him and not going to overpay to get him.

[dude]

I'd go for Gallen.  

 

...but they have to want to trade him.  They control him for 3 more years and I don't think they think they are going backwards.

 

Cowser is sort of the best piece there and they don't care about Cowser. They  are loaded in NOW OFers.

 

I don't think Bumgarner is a dump in the sense they have to move him like other dump-ish contracts.  I think they'd be willing to move him, but you are making a deal, not just taking a salary (which is what's wrong with MLB Trade thingy)

[dude]

I'd go for Gallen.  

 

Also, I'm down for getting Gallen, but I think you have to pay more than you want.  You'd have to start with GRod..

[Mackus]

Also the Baumgarner = Verlander idea is pretty hard to support.  Verlander had a very shaky 2014 at Age 31.  He then had a very good albeit injury-plagued 2015 and was 2nd in the Cy Young in 2016 before having a mildly down first two-thirds of 2017, with a 117 ERA+ at Age 34 when he was traded to Detroit.  

 

One bad year that was nearly three yearsin the rear-view for Verlander when he was traded.

 

Bumgarner has had an 84 ERA+ over the past three years from Age 30-32.  That's only 65 starts because of 2020, but its still a lot of body of work.  Fair to wonder if its just new scenery and if he can recover elsewhere, but that's a very different set of circumstancesfor him compared to Verlander prior to his trade.  

[mweb08]

Kremer wouldnt be forced to AAA if for whatever reason we acquired Bumgarner for peanuts. GRod would start the year in AAA or Wells would be pushed into the pen where he's likely going to end up anyway. Kremer has 100% earned a rotation spot if he is in the organization come OD.


If Bradish and Kremer are here in April and healthy they will be in the rotation. You can book it no matter what else happens the rest of the offseason.

Hey look at this, we agree!

Yeah, it's pretty crazy to suggest Kremer would be sent down to AAA with the addition of Bumgarner.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I have no way of knowing if Gallen is actually available, but I can look at the Dodgers and Padres rosters and come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't look good for Arizona anytime soon. 

I think his existing years of control (and talent) means the cost would be high.  But if I'm Elias, that's the type of move I'm looking to make. 

[dude]

Awesome that now somehow Kremer is a lynchpin to the future.  I've argued he should be in the rotation above all of these mid-tier FA desires...but now he's a must.  Cool.

 

If we had Bumgarner, the 2024 rotation would be...

 

MadBum

Means

GRod

Hall

Bradish

[Mackus]

Bassitt and Bumgarner would've been an interesting combo.  I'd like the potential upside of Bumgarner combined with the strong reliability of Bassitt.  if Bumgarner flops, you eat the contract and go with a younger guy or maybe that coincides with Means' return.

 

Its weird how big of a mistake I think not getting Bassitt done was.  For 3 years he was an absolutely ideal target.  Could even have done a big bonus or Year 1 salary to entice him while not impacting the payroll slightly down the road as much.

[dude]

I have no way of knowing if Gallen is actually available, but I can look at the Dodgers and Padres rosters and come to the logical conclusion that it doesn't look good for Arizona anytime soon. 

I think his existing years of control (and talent) means the cost would be high.  But if I'm Elias, that's the type of move I'm looking to make. 

 

...but that's not the way it works.  This is Cost of Availability^TM.  Just because you think you have the assets to make a trade, it's not the Trade Simulator, you have to grossly over-pay.  I'd have to go check if they still do this, but for a long time the Trade Simulator wouldn't let you add Mike Trout....because EVERYONE would want to suggest how their team could get Mike Trout.  Their team was never going to get Mike Trout.  It's didn't matter how you add up the numbers.

 

You can covet the things you can't get or you can move on the things you can.

[mweb08]

Awesome that now somehow Kremer is a lynchpin to the future. I've argued he should be in the rotation above all of these mid-tier FA desires...but now he's a must. Cool.

If we had Bumgarner, the 2024 rotation would be...

MadBum
Means
GRod
Hall
Bradish

He's not a must, but he's also far from first one demoted to make room for a new guy. He also should be given the opportunity to stick in the rotation for this year and years to come unless he can be included in a trade that makes sense, so not this one.

[BSLChrisStoner]

...but that's not the way it works.  This is Cost of Availability^TM.  Just because you think you have the assets to make a trade, it's not the Trade Simulator, you have to grossly over-pay.  I'd have to go check if they still do this, but for a long time the Trade Simulator wouldn't let you add Mike Trout....because EVERYONE would want to suggest how their team could get Mike Trout.  Their team was never going to get Mike Trout.  It's didn't matter how you add up the numbers.

 

You can covet the things you can't get or you can move on the things you can.

I think the package I suggested is about the right cost.  It's a lot of talent and control for Arizona. 
 

2035 thinks it would cost less. 

 

You think Rodriguez would have to be a part of the package. 

 

 

Again, no idea if Arizona would make him available.  
My sense is they would because, they know they aren't competing anytime soon, and stocking up talent and team control makes more sense than keeping the lone asset.... but who knows?