423 replies to this topic

[russsnyder]

The last four games will have very little to do with how I view Lamar long term. We've seen enough of him through good and bad moments to lend too much credence to the end of the regular season.

 

I'm 100%, all in, however you want to put it on extending Lamar this offseason. I do think you get a discount by signing him after year three like Watson and Mahomes. The guaranteed money and injury risk insurance Lamar gets in an early deal is worth something. Plus we'd be buying out the last two years we have him on a rookie salary. All things equal, players get more expensive the closer they get to FA.

 

I don't worry about injury risk any more than any other player. Lamar is durable and generally smart and quick enough to dodge big hits. He will lay out for 4th downs and TDs though. 

 

You can't let a talent like Lamar leave the organization. He will be worth every penny imo, the biggest thing he needs to work on is mechanics. He lets the ball sail too often. It's been an issue from the start and I believe that's fixable and he's willing to be taught.

 

Good post.

 

I think his regression as a passer can be tied into the pandemic.

 

He probably was not able to work with his personal coach as much and he had very little work in training camp.

 

The strides he made in the past give me confidence that these issues can be ironed out.

 

Plus, the guy has an unbelievable work ethic,

[Roll Tide]

He didn't have any fumbles.

If they called the missed snap a fumble, that's just a technicality and not what anyone is talking about when they refer to fumbles.

Zuerlein missed from 40, 52, and 53. 40 is a chip shot, but the others aren't.

This is a very cherry picked post, IMO. It wasn't a strong performance by the Ravens but don't need to be misleading to make that case.

Thought about this before responding.... Zuerlein is 55 for 70 in his career from 40-49 yards including 5 misses last year which is why he’s no longer with the Rams. He’s about 50% from 50+. On a normal day he makes 2 of 3. And the game is pretty tight through 3 quarters. My point about the game is that we left a horrible team in the game far too long. Against a good team we probably lose that game due to our mistakes. Remember I’m picking the Ravens to run the table. If they play the same game against the Browns we probably lose.

 

My point is 12/17 for 107 yards is a pretty bad day for any NFL QB. The improvised pass play to Brown was brilliant and I think Lamar does well in those game situations. But, the Interception was due to a floating pass and the TD pass to Boykin took a really good catch with outstretched hands on a blown coverage to complete. If there was a safety over the top the pass is likely intercepted. I can think of one or two other passes that could’ve been picked off. The accuracy isn’t there most of the time even when his passes are completed. 
 

Anyone who wants to bash me here go back and review the game thread and the remarks by even his biggest defenders here. Huddle up suggest extending him early at a discount as he believes the mechanics can be corrected. I can think of a number of NFL QBs that the same things were said about and examples where several teams tried with guys. Former Ravens ....Testaverde comes to mind! I remember him being called Intercept-averde all over the place. And while Vinny wasn’t a run first equivalent to Lamar I think we can agree that he had a better arm and could make all of the throws. Plus Testaverde had a bad habit of throwing the untimely pick at the worse possible time.........Ready to put points on the board .... Etc. Sound familiar.... Plus the record with Lamar under center when trailing after the 1st quarter is horrifying. Some will say it will get better. I’d argue that it can only get better.

 

If you asked an NFL GM if they’d draft Testaverde today knowing his career outcome would you pick him? And if so at what point in the draft, I think the answers would be interesting.

 

I think you pay him on his remaining contract and perhaps tag him one year. See what you have and then choose to extend or cut your losses. I think a big contract at this point would be beyond stupid unless there is an easy escape clause and I doubt that is possible on a deal that Lamar and his agent would agree to. Still haven’t won a playoff game and even if they pick up one of the last slots probably run into KC early and lose again. I just don’t think DeCOSTA and company are stupid enough to bet on what I believe to be a long shot to be the impact guy once his cap number starts to take a toll on the talent around him. Especially with all of the red flags at this point I still  think Lamar is a gifted athlete and a great option type player. I just don’t think he’s an NFL caliber passer for the reasons I’ve already stated. It’s fair to say that the good NFL coaches have adjusted to the offense and can limited the running. The bad coaches or teams that don’t have the right personnel with make him look good on some days.

 

Just my 2 cents

[makoman]

Vinny was the primary starter 13 years and only had one year that I'd say was clearly better than Lamar's so called horrible year this year. And that's just passing, Lamar already has more career rushing yards. Vinny's career interception percentage is over double Lamar's. That is a weird comparison. Even in different eras the players are totally different.

 

12/17 107 is what the game required. 294 rushing yards. The pick wasn't a terrible throw but it was off, and he missed two balls to Boykin, one would have been a TD. Def could have been better. It's pretty weird to say "If there was a safety over the top the [TD to Boykin] is likely intercepted"...hmm do you think the pass and probably the entire read happen differently if a safety is there? Anyway, the total package coming off COVID and no practice, I'm not going to complain.

 

Still haven't won a playoff game is so tired. Manning was 0 for his first 3 and didn't win one till his 6th season. If Lamar is 0 for his rookie contract maybe yeah, you were right, but people act like NFL QBs are a finished product at 23.

 

I'm not going to say I'm thrilled with his year. His rating and QBR are both 20th in the league among qualifiers (though many are tightly packed and he could get up to maybe top 12ish with a string of good games). I fail to see how that's "not NFL caliber"--are you going to say that his 93.9 rating is being inflated by his amazing line and receiving corps? Of course he has regressed and it is concerning. Still, even if you want to pretend last year never happened you can see the flashes of his passing talent. The Browns game he was great. 2nd half Indy. More recent, the TD to Brown or the one to Andrews against the Titans the other week.

 

His mechanics were way better last year so I'm not sure how you can say his mechanics can't improve. A lot of unnecessary sidearms and balls sailing. Sloppy footwork. We saw some of this his rookie year. Then he worked on that with various coaches non-stop last offseason and cleaned it up, but he couldn't do that in the same way this year. So I'm hopeful a regular offseason, if we get that, will help a lot. It would also help if this franchise could ever figure out the WR position.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Hes a dynamite playmaker. He has time to improve as a pure passer. You keep him here while he's still a terrific playmaker even if the classic QBing skills never improve. That's probably into his later 20s. 27 or 28. Get the extension done this offseason. Keep it as team friendly as you can the first 2 or 3 years and reevaluate when the cap number balloons.

[Mike in STL]

My point is 12/17 for 107 yards is a pretty bad day for any NFL QB. The improvised pass play to Brown was brilliant and I think Lamar does well in those game situations. But, the Interception was due to a floating pass and the TD pass to Boykin took a really good catch with outstretched hands on a blown coverage to complete. If there was a safety over the top the pass is likely intercepted. I can think of one or two other passes that could’ve been picked off. The accuracy isn’t there most of the time even when his passes are completed. 

I disagree, is the nicest way I can put it.

 

12/17 for 107 yards is a bad day for a QB. (Don't forget the 2 TDs). Is it though when the team runs the ball 37 times? The offense punted once. Wanna see him throw it 40 times and then we complain that Dobbins only got two carries? Lamar Jackson accounted for 201 yards. He carried it 13 times that pocket passers only, don't. You can't really, but if you covert his rushes to passes as if he was a straight up pocket passer, its 201 yards on 30 attempts and 3 TDs. 

 

The INT was not floating a pass. It hit Brown right on the hands in stride and he took his eyes off it anticipating a hit.

 

The TD pass involved catching the ball with out stretched hands? How is this even a criticism? Scouts look for guys who can catch with their hands rather than rely on their body. I don't care where the ball is, you kinda have to do that to catch most balls. Doesn't mean the pass was inaccurate and Boykin bailed him out either. Ever heard of of putting the ball where only your guy can get it?

 

If there was a safety...well there wasn't. Thats called reading the defense. If there was a safety deep on the 37 yard TD run he might not make it all the way to endzone. If this and if that arguments are the worst. If my Aunt had a wiener she'd be my Uncle. 

 

Accuracy isn't there most of time on completed passes? That, just doesn't make sense to me. That's not even splitting hairs. You sound like every ball has to hit a moving target the size of a quarter or it's a bad pass. Sure he sailed a pass or two off the mark. Literally every quarterback does this every game. Mahomes just went 25/40 in his last game. You think his receivers had 15 dropped passes on the night?

 

Lamar played very well aside from the first drive of the game. His QBR was 78.7. That means that all things being equal, his play would result in a win 78.7% of the time (12-13 wins a season if he repeated the same game 16 times). A QBR for the season of 50 makes you average, and of 75 is Pro Bowl level. His season QBR is 63.1. Better than average but not Pro Bowl level, and I think that's a pretty accurate representation of his season so far. 

[JStruds]

I disagree, is the nicest way I can put it.

 

12/17 for 107 yards is a bad day for a QB. (Don't forget the 2 TDs). Is it though when the team runs the ball 37 times? The offense punted once. Wanna see him throw it 40 times and then we complain that Dobbins only got two carries? Lamar Jackson accounted for 201 yards. He carried it 13 times that pocket passers only, don't. You can't really, but if you covert his rushes to passes as if he was a straight up pocket passer, its 201 yards on 30 attempts and 3 TDs. 

 

The INT was not floating a pass. It hit Brown right on the hands in stride and he took his eyes off it anticipating a hit.

 

The TD pass involved catching the ball with out stretched hands? How is this even a criticism? Scouts look for guys who can catch with their hands rather than rely on their body. I don't care where the ball is, you kinda have to do that to catch most balls. Doesn't mean the pass was inaccurate and Boykin bailed him out either. Ever heard of of putting the ball where only your guy can get it?

 

If there was a safety...well there wasn't. Thats called reading the defense. If there was a safety deep on the 37 yard TD run he might not make it all the way to endzone. If this and if that arguments are the worst. If my Aunt had a wiener she'd be my Uncle. 

 

Accuracy isn't there most of time on completed passes? That, just doesn't make sense to me. That's not even splitting hairs. You sound like every ball has to hit a moving target the size of a quarter or it's a bad pass. Sure he sailed a pass or two off the mark. Literally every quarterback does this every game. Mahomes just went 25/40 in his last game. You think his receivers had 15 dropped passes on the night?

 

Lamar played very well aside from the first drive of the game. His QBR was 78.7. That means that all things being equal, his play would result in a win 78.7% of the time (12-13 wins a season if he repeated the same game 16 times). A QBR for the season of 50 makes you average, and of 75 is Pro Bowl level. His season QBR is 63.1. Better than average but not Pro Bowl level, and I think that's a pretty accurate representation of his season so far. 

That's a great, logical response.  I'd mildly disagree with you on only one part; that last paragraph.  I'd up the lower end of the QBR score and suggest that 60 is a better number to call average.  50 is (using your idea of all other things being equal) below average on just about any grading scale even if it results in an even 8-8 record.

[jamesdean]

I disagree, is the nicest way I can put it.

 

12/17 for 107 yards is a bad day for a QB. (Don't forget the 2 TDs). Is it though when the team runs the ball 37 times? The offense punted once. Wanna see him throw it 40 times and then we complain that Dobbins only got two carries? Lamar Jackson accounted for 201 yards. He carried it 13 times that pocket passers only, don't. You can't really, but if you covert his rushes to passes as if he was a straight up pocket passer, its 201 yards on 30 attempts and 3 TDs. 

 

The INT was not floating a pass. It hit Brown right on the hands in stride and he took his eyes off it anticipating a hit.

 

The TD pass involved catching the ball with out stretched hands? How is this even a criticism? Scouts look for guys who can catch with their hands rather than rely on their body. I don't care where the ball is, you kinda have to do that to catch most balls. Doesn't mean the pass was inaccurate and Boykin bailed him out either. Ever heard of of putting the ball where only your guy can get it?

 

If there was a safety...well there wasn't. Thats called reading the defense. If there was a safety deep on the 37 yard TD run he might not make it all the way to endzone. If this and if that arguments are the worst. If my Aunt had a wiener she'd be my Uncle. 

 

Accuracy isn't there most of time on completed passes? That, just doesn't make sense to me. That's not even splitting hairs. You sound like every ball has to hit a moving target the size of a quarter or it's a bad pass. Sure he sailed a pass or two off the mark. Literally every quarterback does this every game. Mahomes just went 25/40 in his last game. You think his receivers had 15 dropped passes on the night?

 

Lamar played very well aside from the first drive of the game. His QBR was 78.7. That means that all things being equal, his play would result in a win 78.7% of the time (12-13 wins a season if he repeated the same game 16 times). A QBR for the season of 50 makes you average, and of 75 is Pro Bowl level. His season QBR is 63.1. Better than average but not Pro Bowl level, and I think that's a pretty accurate representation of his season so far. 

I expected him to be a little off passing the ball after being away from practice for so long so I'm not going to lose any sleep over his stats. Roman committed to a heavy run strategy and the OL took the responsibility and ran with it.  They were impressive and Lamar was moving around, cutting and juking better than I've seen him since last season.  He seemed to be playing with fresh legs but mainly, he became dangerous again instead of standing the pocket taking sacks.  

[makoman]

According to this the missed TD may have been tipped. It's still hard for me to see, but maybe.

 

https://twitter.com/...922098397294592

[Mike B]

To me it was one play.  Missed passes happen, every game.  He played very well on Tuesday.  I am happy with what I saw.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

According to this the missed TD may have been tipped. It's still hard for me to see, but maybe.

https://twitter.com/...922098397294592

Good catch. Hard to say definitively but makes sense that it was tipped. Otherwise it was a really bad miss.

[Mike in STL]

That's a great, logical response.  I'd mildly disagree with you on only one part; that last paragraph.  I'd up the lower end of the QBR score and suggest that 60 is a better number to call average.  50 is (using your idea of all other things being equal) below average on just about any grading scale even if it results in an even 8-8 record.

Thats fair. 50 wasn't my definition of average, thats what ESPN who created it calls it since it's a 0-100 scale. 

[Roll Tide]

I disagree, is the nicest way I can put it.

 

12/17 for 107 yards is a bad day for a QB. (Don't forget the 2 TDs). Is it though when the team runs the ball 37 times? The offense punted once. Wanna see him throw it 40 times and then we complain that Dobbins only got two carries? Lamar Jackson accounted for 201 yards. He carried it 13 times that pocket passers only, don't. You can't really, but if you covert his rushes to passes as if he was a straight up pocket passer, its 201 yards on 30 attempts and 3 TDs. 

 

The INT was not floating a pass. It hit Brown right on the hands in stride and he took his eyes off it anticipating a hit.

 

The TD pass involved catching the ball with out stretched hands? How is this even a criticism? Scouts look for guys who can catch with their hands rather than rely on their body. I don't care where the ball is, you kinda have to do that to catch most balls. Doesn't mean the pass was inaccurate and Boykin bailed him out either. Ever heard of of putting the ball where only your guy can get it?

 

If there was a safety...well there wasn't. Thats called reading the defense. If there was a safety deep on the 37 yard TD run he might not make it all the way to endzone. If this and if that arguments are the worst. If my Aunt had a wiener she'd be my Uncle. 

 

Accuracy isn't there most of time on completed passes? That, just doesn't make sense to me. That's not even splitting hairs. You sound like every ball has to hit a moving target the size of a quarter or it's a bad pass. Sure he sailed a pass or two off the mark. Literally every quarterback does this every game. Mahomes just went 25/40 in his last game. You think his receivers had 15 dropped passes on the night?

 

Lamar played very well aside from the first drive of the game. His QBR was 78.7. That means that all things being equal, his play would result in a win 78.7% of the time (12-13 wins a season if he repeated the same game 16 times). A QBR for the season of 50 makes you average, and of 75 is Pro Bowl level. His season QBR is 63.1. Better than average but not Pro Bowl level, and I think that's a pretty accurate representation of his season so far. 

 

Dude ...it’s not worth talking about if that’s what you think. Go back and look at the game thread. Browns arm was fully extended forward and away from his body. I believe I said that I didn’t understand why he didn’t jump to catch the ball. Probably could’ve been caught with better effort by Brown ...but let’s not act like Jackson hit him in the chest. 
 

I addressed the Boykin TD pass in my post and also the pass in the end zone to Brown on the busted play. So please don’t act like I ignored them

 

As to the last paragraph....that’s if they can play the Dallas Cowboys 16 times. 

[PrimeTime]

 

Dude ...it’s not worth talking about if that’s what you think. Go back and look at the game thread. Browns arm was fully extended forward and away from his body. I believe I said that I didn’t understand why he didn’t jump to catch the ball. Probably could’ve been caught with better effort by Brown ...but let’s not act like Jackson hit him in the chest. 
 

I addressed the Boykin TD pass in my post and also the pass in the end zone to Brown on the busted play. So please don’t act like I ignored them

 

As to the last paragraph....that’s if they can play the Dallas Cowboys 16 times. 

 

Has Jackson struggled with consistency thus far this season? Absolutely. However, coming off an illness, a long layoff, with little practice time, missing his 2 most reliable pass catchers and behind a makeshift offensive line, I'll take a game like Tuesday night anytime. His turnover wasn't a perfect throw but it certainly wasn't a terrible throw or a poor read. It was something that happens in a football game from time to time.

[Roll Tide]

Has Jackson struggled with consistency thus far this season? Absolutely. However, coming off an illness, a long layoff, with little practice time, missing his 2 most reliable pass catchers and behind a makeshift offensive line, I'll take a game like Tuesday night anytime. His turnover wasn't a perfect throw but it certainly wasn't a terrible throw or a poor read. It was something that happens in a football game from time to time.

With 4 games to go he already has more interceptions than last year to go along with 7 more fumbles. His QBR this year is a whopping 63. I get he missed a game and practice. But , the poor mechanics and footwork have been there all season. Can he fix the mechanics or are they just bad habits that will keep popping up, Plus defenses have adapted.... put the Cowboys and the horrible defense aside and look at the other games. Most games the effectiveness of the keeper hasn’t been there especially around the edge. Defenses have stacked the box and covered the middle dating the Ravens to beat them on the outside. For the most part that hasn’t happened. Blame the line? Who are you gonna blame when Lamar gets paid $35 million and the teams talent pool takes a big hit?

[PrimeTime]

With 4 games to go he already has more interceptions than last year to go along with 7 more fumbles. His QBR this year is a whopping 63. I get he missed a game and practice. But , the poor mechanics and footwork have been there all season. Can he fix the mechanics or are they just bad habits that will keep popping up, Plus defenses have adapted.... put the Cowboys and the horrible defense aside and look at the other games. Most games the effectiveness of the keeper hasn’t been there especially around the edge. Defenses have stacked the box and covered the middle dating the Ravens to beat them on the outside. For the most part that hasn’t happened. Blame the line? Who are you gonna blame when Lamar gets paid $35 million and the teams talent pool takes a big hit?

Do you discount all of the strides Jackson made last year? Do you think a 23 year old can't improve?

[Roll Tide]

Do you discount all of the strides Jackson made last year? Do you think a 23 year old can't improve?

He had a very good season until the playoffs last year so no. But, I think the running portion of the Ravens offense and just do fear of Jackson running opened the passing game. I think the NFL has figured it out and as I mentioned are daring the Ravens to throw down the field and outside the hash marks. I also think that is Lamar’s weakness even when his mechanics are good. 
 

Can he improve? Maybe....Will he revert back to the bad mechanics that he’s employed his 15+ years of playing football before reaching the NFL? I believe so. 
 

The other issues that you can’t improve is his arm strength. I’m not saying it’s weak and the fact that he struggles when playing from behind.

[PrimeTime]

He had a very good season until the playoffs last year so no. But, I think the running portion of the Ravens offense and just do fear of Jackson running opened the passing game. I think the NFL has figured it out and as I mentioned are daring the Ravens to throw down the field and outside the hash marks. I also think that is Lamar’s weakness even when his mechanics are good. 
 

Can he improve? Maybe....Will he revert back to the bad mechanics that he’s employed his 15+ years of playing football before reaching the NFL? I believe so. 
 

The other issues that you can’t improve is his arm strength. I’m not saying it’s weak and the fact that he struggles when playing from behind.

 

I'm with you regarding Lamar's "arm talent". He's never going to make those stick throws to the outside from the opposite hash mark, that's just not him. However, if you continue to run the offense around what he does well, run centric, RPO concepts and set up play action, it's very difficult to contain. Lamar just has to realize that the best way for him to be successful is to continue being a dual threat for as long as he can. While he's utilizing his scary athleticism and speed, he can continue to improve his reads and work on his consistency with his mechanics. 

 

Now, what to do about the future? This year is incredibly difficult to judge anyone. It's just been bizarre all the way around. I think Lamar still has room to get better as a passer, as long as he and the coaching staff recognizes where his limitations are. If I were the Ravens, I would approach Lamar about an extension but front load it. That way, you have an opportunity to get out in a few years if he doesn't progress any further. We've invested too much in our other stars to risk starting over at quarterback in the next 3-5 years.

[Huddle It Up Films]

He had a very good season until the playoffs last year so no. But, I think the running portion of the Ravens offense and just do fear of Jackson running opened the passing game. I think the NFL has figured it out and as I mentioned are daring the Ravens to throw down the field and outside the hash marks. I also think that is Lamar’s weakness even when his mechanics are good. 
 

Can he improve? Maybe....Will he revert back to the bad mechanics that he’s employed his 15+ years of playing football before reaching the NFL? I believe so. 
 

The other issues that you can’t improve is his arm strength. I’m not saying it’s weak and the fact that he struggles when playing from behind.

 

His mechanics have already come a long way. The word revert is a perfect description but I think you're going too far in thinking he loses them for an entire game. From my perspective he drops his elbow mostly on throws when the play is off schedule. Not all the time but mostly.

 

It takes a while to change how you've been throwing for 15+ years and occasionally you will revert. The more muscle memory the better it should get over time is what I'm saying. It was obvious last game that the muscle memory isn't there yet. He went from sailing balls to throwing them downhill.

 

I also think you're sleeping on his touch and natural accuracy. He throws a few headscratchers and a few beauties every game generally speaking.

 

As far as an extension goes, I wanted to ask if you thought the Watson extension was a "stupid" move? He has his issues too and been beat up a lot in the pocket. Will paying him $35/year look bad in a few years when someone breaks the bank at $45-50/year? And if you wouldn't have extended him, are there any other young QB who's worth an early extension besides Mahomes?

[St.Steveg]

Lamar's throws against the Cowboys were in front, behind, too high and too low, and he let multiple third downs take him off the field. But the guy is coming off no playing or practicing for about two weeks, plus being sick with the covid. I think making future decisions based on what we see this season is futile. Limited training camp, no pre-season, the offensive line in turmoil, young WRs have not stepped up, TE corps devastated. The whole offense is out of sync. I don't totally blame Roman, but I don't think he's responded well to the challenges. Jackson has not been consistently sharp, but I would argue that 75% of Lamar Jackson is better than many QBs around, if he's used right.

 

The dime he dropped in to Brown in the corner of the end zone came when he was scrambling to his left. Maybe he is better throwing on the move? Could be his balance is better while running. To me what the offense should be doing is playing fast, RPO, short quick over the middle and out, using the run to set up deep shots off play action. Gotta get the OL in order, but it can happen. Focus on Lamar's strengths.

[Roll Tide]

I'm with you regarding Lamar's "arm talent". He's never going to make those stick throws to the outside from the opposite hash mark, that's just not him. However, if you continue to run the offense around what he does well, run centric, RPO concepts and set up play action, it's very difficult to contain. Lamar just has to realize that the best way for him to be successful is to continue being a dual threat for as long as he can. While he's utilizing his scary athleticism and speed, he can continue to improve his reads and work on his consistency with his mechanics. 

 

Now, what to do about the future? This year is incredibly difficult to judge anyone. It's just been bizarre all the way around. I think Lamar still has room to get better as a passer, as long as he and the coaching staff recognizes where his limitations are. If I were the Ravens, I would approach Lamar about an extension but front load it. That way, you have an opportunity to get out in a few years if he doesn't progress any further. We've invested too much in our other stars to risk starting over at quarterback in the next 3-5 years.

 

That’s my point ...defenses are giving us the outside and deep in order to cover the middle and stuff the box. 

 

 

Doing what he’s good at worked against the bad or under manned teams. It hasn’t worked in the playoffs, games when trailing after the 1st quarters , or the defenses that have figured out how to stop it.

 

The Ravens and Lamar will get lots of people back on the bandwagon when they win their final 4 including a win against the Browns. Pittsburgh and Cleveland are so  over hyped due to very soft schedules that it isn’t funny. I predict over division will get beat up on in the playoffs.