6241 replies to this topic

[The Epic]

https://www.propubli...m_content=river

 

Man it's almost like we've this discussion about racist police officers in other threads, long before this one!

[mweb08]

Man it's almost like we've this discussion about racist police officers in other threads, long before this one!

 

But we were told that a solution would be to give the police more power over African Americans!

[mweb08]

https://www.propubli...m_content=river

“There is a problem with racism in this country, in pretty much every establishment that exists,” said Dine, who left the agency in 2016. “You can always do more in retrospect.”

I know many don't feel comfortable talking about race. I know many feel attacked and/or get offended when things they have said or supported are said to be racist. I know some don't think it's that big of an issue. I know some feel hopeless in creating positive change. Lastly, I know the issue of racism and race in America can be difficult to really understand since it has such tremendous depth and complexity.

All of those impediments to change are understandable to an extent.

However, when it comes to dealing with racism, that line ("You can always do more in retrospect") applies to all of us.

We need to do so much better on this matter. We need to because it's plainly and simply the right thing to do.

Beyond that, we need to because seriously grappling with this and then tackling racism head on will make this country so much better for all people. We also need to because it is a critical step in preventing what happened last Wednesday, what happened the past four years, and what happened in the backlash to an African American president.

We have not shown that we are better than this either. Not now or in the past. All of that immorality and ugliness is reflective of who we are as a country, but it doesn't have to be. Be part of the change you wish to see.

[RShack]

[Mashed Potatoes]

There are good laws and bad laws. Having a domestic terrorism law does not require that it be a bad law.

Here's an example of what needs fixing: Remember the plot to kidnap, "try", and execute the lady guv of Michigan? Remember how the news reports *all* referred to "investigations" (plural) into "14 members" of that so-called "militia". That wording was no accident.

Why? Because the FBI was prevented by law from investigating that "militia". The fact that there were grounds for investigating 14 (!!) individual members of it was not legal "predication" for investigating that group. Instead, they needed predication for each and every one of the *separate* investigations into each and every one of the 14 individuals they investigated. They could not legally investigate what the "militia" as a whole was up to, regardless of how many members of that "militia" they had probable cause to investigate.

That needs to stop.

There are perfectly valid civil liberty concerns that must be addressed. Of course there are. That's the reason I'd be happy to put black legislators (and the ACLU) in charge of constructing the needed legislation (in concert with the FBI).

But don't get conned by soundbites... and by Repubs who want to protect white supremacist groups. Just because the Patriot Act was a bad, knee-jerk law doesn't mean needed laws must be bad laws.

Can you point me to what exactly restricts the FBI from investigating a militia group? Historically they've had no issue surveiling, infiltrating, provoking, investigating and charging leftist/black groups.

I'm skeptical of our current electeds ability to craft non harmful legislation, and for police forces and the intelligence community to not misuse whatever expanded powers they're given.

Luckily some local advocates that I organize with have put the breaks on this poorly conceived first attempt. https://theintercept...error-maryland/

[RShack]

Can you point me to what exactly restricts the FBI from investigating a militia group? Historically they've had no issue surveiling, infiltrating, provoking, investigating and charging leftist/black groups.

I'm skeptical of our current electeds ability to craft non harmful legislation, and for police forces and the intelligence community to not misuse whatever expanded powers they're given.

Luckily some local advocates that I organize with have put the breaks on this poorly conceived first attempt. https://theintercept...error-maryland/

 

I don't know the answer to your  question.... just going by what an ex-FBI guy said about what they need to do their job...

 

Dunno for sure, but I think the laws changed since all the Hoover crap... or maybe they just started observing the laws that Hoover ignored... not sure which....

[russsnyder]

Can you point me to what exactly restricts the FBI from investigating a militia group? Historically they've had no issue surveiling, infiltrating, provoking, investigating and charging leftist/black groups.

I'm skeptical of our current electeds ability to craft non harmful legislation, and for police forces and the intelligence community to not misuse whatever expanded powers they're given.

Luckily some local advocates that I organize with have put the breaks on this poorly conceived first attempt. https://theintercept...error-maryland/

https://www.freep.co...etail Thursday.

 

I think it's easier and more effective for the FBI to use informants to infiltrate these groups.

 

They most likely made plea deals to get informants to tape the meetings.

 

I have no evidence, but it's probably more difficult to infiltrate any extremist group with the rise of the internet.

 

It's pretty easy for these groups to do research on potential infiltrators and I'd bet that gaining the confidence of members of an extremist group is a difficult and arduous process. That said, I don't think there is anything that stands in the feds way to infiltrate these groups. It likely goes on, but it is not reported to protect the agents and their families from retribution. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I merged with the other thread.  Will keep this open until Inauguration Day.  
Will then close again. 

If there is some other event that demands discussion, will open back.

[Mashed Potatoes]

I don't know the answer to your question.... just going by what an ex-FBI guy said about what they need to do their job...

Dunno for sure, but I think the laws changed since all the Hoover crap...

I think as past precedent and recent precedent in the link posted below show, the FBI absolutely can infiltrate and prosecute a group/militia. I've yet to hear a single good reason for further empowering local police and intelligence communities beyond their already all-reaching unaccountable powers.

[RShack]

For more-than-several years, I've thought the main problem with police in general was that so-called "good cops" would not turn in bad cops.  IMO, that made them not-good cops...

 

Well, the Capitol invasion seems to have changed that sort of thing... finally....

 

https://www.washingt...d2fda0efbb2a324

 

Of course, it remains to be seen of they will turn in cops who are criminals but not traitors....

[RShack]

"America in miniature"... that used to be MD's motto... is it still?  (I dunno...)

 

Events in Aberdeen make that motto seem fitting...

 

https://www.washingt...d2fda0efbb2a324

[RShack]

I think as past precedent and recent precedent in the link posted below show, the FBI absolutely can infiltrate and prosecute a group/militia. I've yet to hear a single good reason for further empowering local police and intelligence communities beyond their already all-reaching unaccountable powers.

 

I think it's safe to say we don't know enough about this at present to be sure either way...

[RShack]

Video shows likely gun-aiming laser...about 35sec in...

https://news.yahoo.c...-191709369.html

 

Green lasers can be simple handheld pointing devices.  But perhaps the most popular use for them over the last year or two is to replace red lasers as aiming devices on semi-automatic weapons (they show-up better in daylight than do red lasers).  It scared me to see a green laser dot bounce around on the walls of the House of Representatives chamber...

[You Play to Win the Game]

Reports surfacing today of aides of Giuliani advising those wanting a pardon that the cost will be $2M.

[Mackus]

Reports surfacing today of aides of Giuliani advising those wanting a pardon that the cost will be $2M.

Hey it's not like they can impeach him a third time!

[RShack]

FBI vetting National Guard in DC amid fears of insider attacks....

 

https://apnews.com/a...dc9fefed1242ae8

[RShack]

Unity without justice is dangerous, historian's say...

 

Originally behind a paywall in the Boston Globe, but reprinted here:

https://investorsnew...-the-civil-war/

[RShack]

Trump to issue ~100 pardons on his way out the door...

 

https://www.cnn.com/...cted/index.html

[mweb08]

This article that I used in school titled Getting the Civil War Right is very relevant to what happened at the Capital Building, why Trump got elected, etc: Getting the Civil War Right | Teaching Tolerance

 

These results are alarming because they are essentially wrong. States’ rights was not the main cause of the Civil War—slavery was.

 

The issue is critically important for teachers to see clearly. Understanding why the Civil War began informs virtually all the attitudes about race that we wrestle with today. The distorted emphasis on states’ rights separates us from the role of slavery and allows us to deny the notions of white supremacy that fostered secession.

 

In short, this issue is a perfect example of what Faulkner meant when he said the past is not dead—it’s not even past.

 

Concealing the role of white supremacy—on both sides of the conflict— makes it harder for students to see white supremacy today. After all, if southerners were not championing slavery but states’ rights, then that minimizes southern racism as a cause of the war. And it gives implicit support to the Lost Cause argument that slavery was a benevolent institution. Espousing states’ rights as the reason for secession whitewashes the Confederate cause into a “David versus Goliath” undertaking— the states against the mighty federal government.

 

States’ rights became a rallying cry for southerners fighting all federal guarantees of civil rights for African Americans. This was true both during Reconstruction and in the 1950s, when the modern civil rights movement gained strength. Today, the cause of states’ rights is still invoked against federal social programs and education initiatives that are often beneficial to people of color.

 

In other words, teaching the Civil War wrong cedes power to some of the most reactionary forces in the United States, letting them, rather than truth, dictate what we say in the classroom. Allowing bad history to stand literally makes the public stupid about the past—today.

[DuffMan]

I merged with the other thread.  Will keep this open until Inauguration Day.  
Will then close again. 

If there is some other event that demands discussion, will open back.

Maybe reopen for a few days once we've reached 100 days in the Biden presidency.  A sort of checking in.  Just an idea.