6241 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

I'm getting crushed today at work, but two things:

 

1) He "gets away" with things because there's a literal white supremacist in the White House. People look at things in degrees in that manner. While a whole slew of things in his past would be considered disqualifying but certain people once unearthed, the reason that so many people came out in support of him is...there's a literal white supremacist in the White House. Same reason that he won the primary, in spite of his flaws. Black people overwhelmingly voted for him out of pure pragmatism, knowing that the chances of this country electing anybody more liberal than Biden was...not SMALL, per se, but decreased. And people just wanted to make sure Trump was gone, because THERE'S A...ok, let me stop.

 

2) I think that if you peel back the onion, a lot of those political stances are color-based. Ultimately most of them are; it's hard to take race out of a lot of political discussions, because changes in rules help/hurt areas of color to much, much different scales. Doesn't mean that these rules are racist, but...let's be real, some of them are.

 

Like I said, I didn't want to get into Biden much, but yes, degrees matter. 

 

That is a very important thing to remember when we're comparing anything. Most of the time, two things are not equally bad or good, so we have to use these things inside our craniums to come to a better conclusion than "Both sides..."

 

As for #2, yes, as I previously said, understanding the history of race in America is paramount to understanding politics in America, and not just the politics of the distant past, but the politics of right now. 

 

Our politics and our policies would be drastically different if not for racism being such a big part of our society. Look at the politics of other countries we largely align with historically and culturally that typically do not have racism near the forefront except when a bunch of refugees are seeking asylum. Then look at our country where one of only two major political parties have embarked on a significant strategy with racism at its heart for a little over the past half century (The Southern Strategy). That strategy included the white washing of history such as "The Lost Cause" of the Civil War, is very connected to what we have gone through during these Trumpian times. Hence why I think it's important within this discussion. 

[mweb08]

Speaking of the whitewashing history:

 

1776 report: Historians attack Trump commission’s account of nation’s past as ‘outright lies’ - The Washington Post

[Old Man]

I'm getting crushed today at work, but two things:

 

1) He "gets away" with things because there's a literal white supremacist in the White House. People look at things in degrees in that manner. While a whole slew of things in his past would be considered disqualifying by certain people once unearthed, the reason that so many people came out in support of him is...there's a literal white supremacist in the White House. Same reason that he won the primary, in spite of his flaws. Black people overwhelmingly voted for him out of pure pragmatism, knowing that the chances of this country electing anybody more liberal than Biden was...not SMALL, per se, but decreased. And people just wanted to make sure Trump was gone, because THERE'S A...ok, let me stop.

 

2) I think that if you peel back the onion, a lot of those political stances are color-based. Ultimately most of them are; it's hard to take race out of a lot of political discussions, because changes in rules help/hurt areas of color to much, much different scales. Doesn't mean that these rules are racist, but...let's be real, some of them are.

There are plenty of reasons to not be for Biden, and even peeling back the onion is not a racial issue:

 

The one that concerns me, and Trump was in favor of and got blasted is:

Biden also said that he wants to begin reopening schools in the first 100 days of his administration. His relief package proposes $130 billion to help schools safely reopen.  

Minus 95% of the population being vaccinated, how the heck, can we safely reopen the schools.

 

Im in total agreement that in-school is more productive for most students, but at what cost.

 

Especially with this new COVID-2 strain that is more contagious.

[Mike in STL]

Proud Boys are on the list of 21 hate groups that Md is watching, so I suspect that is your data to support that.

My one comment about voting.

Biden is not the squeaky clean individual, he tries to portray.

How he gets away with that awful racist 72 speech that is on youtube, is beyond me?

There are many platform agenda items that people disagree with Biden on, and most of them are politically and not color based.

The difference is people can change.

After the first debate a couple people at work were having a conversation within my earshot. One trying to support Trump said “Did you know Biden signed a bill many years ago that locked up a bunch of black people.” When he wasn’t checked, I stepped over and said “Did you know the President didn’t denounce white supremacy on national television when given the chance less than 24 hours ago?”

[mweb08]

The difference is people can change.

After the first debate a couple people at work were having a conversation within my earshot. One trying to support Trump said “Did you know Biden signed a bill many years ago that locked up a bunch of black people.” When he wasn’t checked, I stepped over and said “Did you know the President didn’t denounce white supremacy on national television when given the chance less than 24 hours ago?”

 

Good on you for doing that.

 

And to the overall point, if we were an anti-racist country, Biden or the equivalent would be about the worst candidate that we could get in relation to race. 

[Old Man]

The difference is people can change.

After the first debate a couple people at work were having a conversation within my earshot. One trying to support Trump said “Did you know Biden signed a bill many years ago that locked up a bunch of black people.” When he wasn’t checked, I stepped over and said “Did you know the President didn’t denounce white supremacy on national television when given the chance less than 24 hours ago?”

What about Biden's claim to championed the 94 crime bill. Which has been touted as the best thing to happen in crime prosecution or the worst thing that has ever happen. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[The Epic]

Good on you for doing that.

 

And to the overall point, if we were an anti-racist country, Biden or the equivalent would be about the worst candidate that we could get in relation to race. 

 

To kinda say a different way (I assume you mean this...)...in a truly anti-racist country, Biden would be the fringe candidate. Pretty much as far right as one could get. And the likelihood of him sniffing a general election would be pretty small. While people can absolutely change, his past would still ultimately be disqualifying.

[You Play to Win the Game]

There are plenty of reasons to not be for Biden, and even peeling back the onion is not a racial issue:

 

The one that concerns me, and Trump was in favor of and got blasted is:

Minus 95% of the population being vaccinated, how the heck, can we safely reopen the schools.

 

Im in total agreement that in-school is more productive for most students, but at what cost.

 

Especially with this new COVID-2 strain that is more contagious.

Where was the $150 billion under Trump to SAFELY reopen schools? Or while typing that out, did you just omit that part from your brain as if it wasn't a factor? 

 

Trump wants schools reopened because he thinks the Pandemic is a hoax and schools being open helps the economy.

 

Biden wants schools reopened SAFELY because he realizes there are things we can do, so long as we do them safely ($$) - and that it's important for kids and their parents - as well as, of course, the economy. 

 

The two results are the same, but it's how they both are going about it.

 

BTW, Biden has no authority to open schools - nor does Trump. 

[Nigel Tufnel]

What about Biden's claim to championed the 94 crime bill. Which has been touted as the best thing to happen in crime prosecution or the worst thing that has ever happen. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

I see you've moved from 'both sides' to whataboutism.  I suppose it is the next logical step in the playbook.

[mweb08]

To kinda say a different way (I assume you mean this...)...in a truly anti-racist country, Biden would be the fringe candidate. Pretty much as far right as one could get. And the likelihood of him sniffing a general election would be pretty small. While people can absolutely change, his past would still ultimately be disqualifying.

 

Pretty much. 

 

In this hypothetical America, he'd be the candidate that people would rally against because of his racist past, yet somehow we live in a society where he was by far the better candidate in that regard. 

[Old Man]

I see you've moved from 'both sides' to whataboutism.  I suppose it is the next logical step in the playbook.

No playbook at all.

[Mike in STL]

What about Biden's claim to championed the 94 crime bill. Which has been touted as the best thing to happen in crime prosecution or the worst thing that has ever happen. I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

What about Trump not denouncing white supremacy?

That’s about the exact conversation I had, that you just quoted.

[russsnyder]

Apparently Mayor Pugh has asked him for a pardon.

Former Baltimore Mayor Catherine Pugh among those seeking clemency from President Trump - Baltimore Sun

Worst that could happen is that she gets ignored. I doubt lightning strikes, but she has nothing to lose.

[russsnyder]

For what it's worth, as a white Male in my late 50's who was educated in Baltimore City Public Schools, I distinctly remember being taught that the prime motivating force of the Civil War was the abolition of slavery. In contrast, I have a couple of friends about the same age who were raised in the South. One was taught that the Civil War was the " War on States Rights." The other was taught that it was the " War of Northern Oppression."

[glenn__davis]

For what it's worth, as a white Male in my late 50's who was educated in Baltimore City Public Schools, I distinctly remember being taught that the prime motivating force of the Civil War was the abolition of slavery. In contrast, I have a couple of friends about the same age who were raised in the South. One was taught that the Civil War was the " War on States Rights." The other was taught that it was the " War of Northern Oppression."

Yeah, growing up in Carroll County I was always taught that it was about slavery. Then I went to a liberal college and was taught it was more about states rights. Go figure. Eventually I read some more and realized that it was indeed about states rights - the right to enslave other humans for profit.

[The Epic]

For what it's worth, as a white Male in my late 50's who was educated in Baltimore City Public Schools, I distinctly remember being taught that the prime motivating force of the Civil War was the abolition of slavery. In contrast, I have a couple of friends about the same age who were raised in the South. One was taught that the Civil War was the " War on States Rights." The other was taught that it was the " War of Northern Oppression."

 

My friend from UNC still calls it the War of Northern Aggression. That's what he's been taught, and that's what he knows.

 

Most of the people I knew from UNC (that went to school in NC or points south) called it that. 

 

ETA: I should note that the majority of my Black friends called it the Civil War, but most of them were from out of state (VA, MA, NY...)

[russsnyder]

My friend from UNC still calls it the War of Northern Aggression. That's what he's been taught, and that's what he knows.

Most of the people I knew from UNC (that went to school in NC or points south) called it that.

ETA: I should note that the majority of my Black friends called it the Civil War, but most of them were from out of state (VA, MA, NY...)

I meant "agression".

Thanks for pointing that out.

I remember one of them told me that they were taught never to refer to it as a " civil" war.

[BSLRoseKatz]

My friend from UNC still calls it the War of Northern Aggression. That's what he's been taught, and that's what he knows.

 

Most of the people I knew from UNC (that went to school in NC or points south) called it that. 

 

ETA: I should note that the majority of my Black friends called it the Civil War, but most of them were from out of state (VA, MA, NY...)

UNC having a statue of a Confederate soldier until 2018 (when it was toppled in a protest) definitely explains some things

[The Epic]

UNC having a statue of a Confederate soldier until 2018 (when it was toppled in a protest) definitely explains some things

 

There's a lot...a LOT...of racist history on that campus. Getting rid of Silent Sam (which they absolutely should have done!) barely made a dent. But dents are dents nonetheless.

[mweb08]

Contrast how we've handled the history of the Confederacy (Lost Cause, thousands of monuments) to how Germany handled the aftermath of the Holocaust.

As far as I am aware, they've done a very good job of telling the history truthfully and not sympathizing with nazism. That has helped the nation grapple with what they did, be unified in condemning it, and actually pay reparations.

We've had much more time, yet have completely failed on all those counts.

We never cured as a nation because we refused to properly diagnose the disease.

We also never truly tried to give African Americans equal opportunity after the Civil War (some effort at times); on the contrary, we have actively made things more difficult for those that were the victims in all of this. Think about how depraved that is.

We have consistently let white supremacy prevail in this country. Sometimes, like these times, many of us recognize the moral crisis and the crippling damage that it inflicts upon our nation and its people, and collectively fight against it. Yet, not enough people join that fight and eventually it dies down, perhaps after some concessions, and then we complacently allow white supremacy to remain the norm, with plenty of defense of it to boot.

Hopefully this time more of us can identify the disease that divides us and actively oppresses so many of us, and many of us can do what we can do to aide with recovering from this disease.