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Monuments, Statues, More


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#141 mweb08

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 06:57 PM

All for more education on the Civil War and I think that would help many come to a fair conclusion on this issue. The key is educating yourself and coming to your own conclusions. You talk about teachers with a bias when they teach the CW and that applies to you as well. I'd tell anyone who listened to your lectures and anyone who listened to a teacher in South Carolina the same thing. Dont just accept what the "experts "say. They all have biases and slants. You're preaching to the choir in your school just like they are in their school.

 

Except "The Lost Cause' is BS. 

 

What you're saying would apply more to how I might speak about politics in my government class than it does in teaching the Civil War. Everyone has some level of bias, but there are no two equally legitimate and accurate sides in this if we are talking big picture.

 

BTW, I haven't actually taught the Civil War other than has a brief review before Reconstruction. 



#142 mweb08

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:18 PM

I'll add that I do try to teach in a way where my students will reach their own conclusions on matters where there are multiple sides to the issue. However, I do so with using proven facts and primary documents for instance rather than teaching something that is not historically accurate just to present another side to it. 


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#143 The Epic

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 08:55 PM

I agree with you.  I'm just trying to justify the "why now" question.

I gotta think that things were going on around the late 1940's that compelled white people to remind black people to stay in their place.

 

Is there anybody in this group...anyone...at all...that feels passionately about keeping the statues up?

 

If someone went to court today and said, "I want them back up," what is the reasoning for doing so?



#144 Miller192

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:19 PM

I gotta think that things were going on around the late 1940's that compelled white people to remind black people to stay in their place.

 

Is there anybody in this group...anyone...at all...that feels passionately about keeping the statues up?

 

If someone went to court today and said, "I want them back up," what is the reasoning for doing so?

 

I don't think you are going to find anyone who really feels they should be put back.

 

Doing my research, it appears they were put up by private investment, special interests.


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#145 Cisc-O's

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:28 PM

From Robert E. Lee himself.... "Lee believed countries that erased visible signs of civil war recovered from conflicts quicker," Horn told PBS. "He was worried that by keeping these symbols alive, it would keep the divisions alive."

"As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that, however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt, in the present condition of the country, would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor."

Lee also did not want anything to do with the flag as he saw it treasonous to fly it and he took it down from his college he was president of.
<p>I am pretty sure Shack is thinking of PBR.

#146 DJ MC

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:06 PM

Isn't that cute. A liberal wants the decision taken away from the big bad state and given to the smaller, individual communities and towns. But hey, sign me up.

 

Late to the party but I feel this is an important point to make.

 

I'm currently vacationing in Tennessee, where just like everywhere else this issue of Confederate monuments is hotly debated. Specifically, I am just outside of Memphis, which desperately wants to remove statues of Jefferson Davis, Nathan Bedford Forrest*, and others from public spaces in the city. The city council actually voted on this a significant time ago (possibly a few years; I'm trying to remember from the news report I saw), and overwhelmingly supported removal.

 

*The Forrest statue is a much more complicated issue, on its own. It not only is a statue of the Memphis native, but it also marks the burial place of Forrest and his wife. So even if you can get the statue out there's a whole, uh, deeper problem on their hands.

 

Unfortunately, the state of Tennessee passed a law several years ago stating that all statues, memorials, and monuments located on public land are officially under the authority of a state historical commission, and may not be removed. Any relocation or removal must be preceded by a waiver from that commission. So the city of Memphis, wanting to have these statues at least relocated, have been waiting for a waiver from a commission appointed by a rural-dominated, Republican-heavy state government.

 

Nobody seems to be holding their breath.

 

So while Nickle mocks someone for wanting the kind of local government that most reasonable people on all sides of the issue would probably feel makes sense, the group that actually pays lip service to wanting that kind of local freedom takes it away (and, as we've seen in recent years, this isn't the only place where or issue on which this occurs).

 

...

 

Statues are not generally put up only for the purpose of remembrance. They are put up to glorify heroes and keep that glorification in the memory of future generations. That's why statues for the people we're talking about were put up in the first place. The statues of Lee and Jackson were put up to glorify great soldiers who fought in a lost cause (or the Lost Cause), because they were heroes to a significant number of people in a city and state where a significant number of people openly supported the losing side. The same for the Confederate Soldiers and Sailors statue, which glorifies the memory of the regular fighting men who came from this city and state and fought on the losing side. I honestly doubt the Dred Scot decision even came into the minds of most people when the Taney statues went up in Baltimore and Annapolis; they were to glorify the memory of a man that to this day held a a higher place in the national government than anyone else native to this state.

 

When it comes to remembrance of the Civil War, we have hundreds of places around the United States that exist for that purpose. They are national and state battlefields, national and state monuments, national and state cemeteries. Places where the Union managed to break the back of the rebellion, like Gettysburg and Vicksburg. Places where the Confederates managed to bloody the northern nose for a little while, like Shiloh and Fredericksburg. The place where the rebellion started at Fort Sumter, and the Army of Northern Virginia surrendered at Appomattox Court House. Even places like Fort Pillow and Andersonville, where the closest things to Nazi-level atrocities occurred on our continent.

 

Those places will be there to help all generations remember the war and what it did to the United States and how the outcomes and consequences will never stop reverberating through time. We don't need statues of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson or Nathan Bedford Forrest, or even Roger Taney, who did as much as any single person to light the fuse that shortly after fired a shell in Charleston Harbor. We have those places.

 

Other countries rarely glorify traitors, and rarely glorify losers. When they do, say in the case of William Wallace, for example, it is a person who fought a losing battle in the service of an oppressed people, and usually a people who eventually did earn their freedom. The rebellion of the 1860s was not an oppressed people attempting to throw off the shackles of a domineering power, no matter how many Southern historical writers want to push that view of the fight. They were a people fighting for the right to oppress and dominate others when the tides of history were receding from that beach. They were traitors to the United States of America, and they were losers. They earned remembrance, but never glory.


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#147 DJ MC

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 11:21 PM

Also, this statue can stay: http://gawker.com/al...nors-1713422930


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#148 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:07 AM

Good conversation here, very informative. I've seriously learned a lot reading through this, and it's changed my perspective on the removal of statues. 

 

With that being said, this isn't going to move the needle in terms of eliminating racism and hate, IMO. While it can't hurt, this is far from the real, underlying issues behind racism/bigotry/hate, etc. 



#149 NewMarketSean

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 06:19 AM

I had a professor in college teach us that the Civil War was not about slavery but state rights. There were many black people in that class, too. I remember thinking even at the age of 18-19 that it was a bunch of bullshit.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#150 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:32 AM

Yeah, the Civil War was about states' rights...  their right to own slaves.



#151 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:35 AM

Good conversation here, very informative. I've seriously learned a lot reading through this, and it's changed my perspective on the removal of statues.

With that being said, this isn't going to move the needle in terms of eliminating racism and hate, IMO. While it can't hurt, this is far from the real, underlying issues behind racism/bigotry/hate, etc.

Of course it's not.

There is literally nothing that can be done to erase hate from people's minds.

All you can hope for is that as the older generations die off, the newer generations make their own choices and decide not to hate.

That starts and ends at home...a statue, a textbook, an athlete or politician...none of that can change or take away hate.

It will take several generations to get that out and really, it will still never happen.

#152 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:36 AM

Good conversation here, very informative. I've seriously learned a lot reading through this, and it's changed my perspective on the removal of statues. 

 

With that being said, this isn't going to move the needle in terms of eliminating racism and hate, IMO. While it can't hurt, this is far from the real, underlying issues behind racism/bigotry/hate, etc. 

 

Every little bit helps, and like you said, it can't hurt. It's low-hanging fruit.

 

I have a laundry list of things that would help race relations in Baltimore, but they're all either polyanna or exorbitant. We'd need a complete overhaul of governmental structure in order to even think about it. 



#153 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:38 AM

That starts and ends at home...a statue, a textbook, an athlete or politician...none of that can change or take away hate.

It will take several generations to get that out and really, it will still never happen.

 

I think it's a goal for, at least in this lifetime, to have the racist people just be that old man on the couch, spouting out stuff, while their kids say, "He's from a different time. Don't mind him. I'm sorry."



#154 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:39 AM

The Taney statue at the state house in Annapolis came down overnight.



#155 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:42 AM

I think it's a goal for, at least in this lifetime, to have the racist people just be that old man on the couch, spouting out stuff, while their kids say, "He's from a different time. Don't mind him. I'm sorry."


It's an unrealistic goal.

That old man taught his children (baby boomers) and they are . passing it to their children.

And btw, hate just isn't against black people even though I know that's what everyone wants to focus on.

We are going to have generations of hate towards Muslims. You have people who hates Jews. The list goes on and on.

It's never going to stop. The noise can get quieter but it will always be there.

#156 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:45 AM

Every little bit helps, and like you said, it can't hurt. It's low-hanging fruit.

I have a laundry list of things that would help race relations in Baltimore, but they're all either polyanna or exorbitant. We'd need a complete overhaul of governmental structure in order to even think about it.

Well, for all the love for democrats in the cities, the inner cities are garbage across the country and basically always have.

That being said, the shitbag republicans wouldn't do any better.

The bottom line is this country will continue to be screwed when you have the elected officials we do...and unfortunately, that is definitely not changing.

Money and power do things to people.

#157 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:51 AM

It's an unrealistic goal.

That old man taught his children (baby boomers) and they are . passing it to their children.

And btw, hate just isn't against black people even though I know that's what everyone wants to focus on.

We are going to have generations of hate towards Muslims. You have people who hates Jews. The list goes on and on.

It's never going to stop. The noise can get quieter but it will always be there.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying that hate will go away. Ever. I'm just saying that maybe it can be lowered over time. Race relations, bad as they are, are still an improvement from, say, the time when these statues went up.



#158 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:51 AM

Well, for all the love for democrats in the cities, the inner cities are garbage across the country and basically always have.

That being said, the shitbag republicans wouldn't do any better.

The bottom line is this country will continue to be screwed when you have the elected officials we do...and unfortunately, that is definitely not changing.

Money and power do things to people.

 

It's a good thing that Republican led jurisdictions in rural America are doing so well lol.

 

The states with the highest median incomes, and education levels all have something in common....  as do the states with the lowest incomes, and education levels...


Blaming the politicians is a cop out imo.

We send them there.  We have the ability to vote them out.

You don't like how someone performs, you get the chance to rectify that the next election.

These people are sent by us, to represent us.  If they are failing at their jobs, it's at-least in-part because of a failure on our part as voters.



#159 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:54 AM

It's a good thing that Republican led jurisdictions in rural America are doing so well lol.

The states with the highest median incomes, and education levels all have something in common.... as do the states with the lowest incomes, and education levels...


Blaming the politicians is a cop out imo.

We send them there. We have the ability to vote them out.

You don't like how someone performs, you get the chance to rectify that the next election.

These people are sent by us, to represent us. If they are failing at their jobs, it's at-least in-part because of a failure on our part as voters.




Unfortunately, they all suck as people. Someone had to get voted in but when your choices are shitbag 1 or shitbag 2, your choices are always terrible.

There are enough people out there naive enough to think the elected officials actually care about the people but hey, maybe they will learn.

#160 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 07:56 AM

It's a good thing that Republican led jurisdictions in rural America are doing so well lol.

 

The states with the highest median incomes, and education levels all have something in common....  as do the states with the lowest incomes, and education levels...


Blaming the politicians is a cop out imo.

We send them there.  We have the ability to vote them out.

You don't like how someone performs, you get the chance to rectify that the next election.

These people are sent by us, to represent us.  If they are failing at their jobs, it's at-least in-part because of a failure on our part as voters.

 

I think it's a fair point to say that, in both rural and city cases, the same people vote in the same people, and nothing changes. 

 

Because people fear the worst case scenario when you vote against the devil you know. 

 

And then, you get a total wild card that may screw up everything more. 

 

I mean...that's a valid point right now, don't you think?






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