217 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

I don't think this has been addressed yet. Can someone help me out on this?

I'm missing the point you are attempting to make.

Those people are out there. For every statue that comes down, somewhere someone is going to want to put up a new statue honoring Jeff Davis.

Their justification will be that it honors' the lineage, and the bs values they believe in.

 

[mweb08]

It would go over about as well as a proposed Bill Cosby statue.

 

Hey Hey Hey

[BSLChrisStoner]

Why not?


People want a statue torn down because it glorifies and remembers that person. Putting them in text books, teaching it across your school time and doing it all over the country does the same thing. You better believe there are people offended by that.

So..again, when is enough enough? When you do one thing, who says it doesn't lead to another and then another. When and where does it stop?

 

Teaching their exploits does cause the person to be remembered... don't think it glorifies them.

Saying teaching the events of the Civil War is 1:1 match with statues honoring those who were attempting to leave the US; is a helluva stretch imo.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I'm missing the point you are attempting to make.

 

 

I think he's pointing out that any anybody proposing a statue like that now would immediately be dismissed as a racist crank, but since the current statues were put up 75 years ago (mostly by racist cranks), somehow people think they're all historic.

[The Epic]

Why not?


People want a statue torn down because it glorifies and remembers that person. Putting them in text books, teaching it across your school time and doing it all over the country does the same thing. You better believe there are people offended by that.

So..again, when is enough enough? When you do one thing, who says it doesn't lead to another and then another. When and where does it stop?

 

Dude, that is not even close to the same thing. You can remember people without putting them on a pedestal. 

[mweb08]

Well... I happen to agree with you, but am interested to see the point Rob is attempting to make there.

I don't get it.

We're talking about removing statues from people who wanted to leave the US, and what they stood.

It's not a white-washing of history.  It's simply not honoring the worse of our history on public grounds.

The idea that people would want to stop teaching the Civil War seems illogical.  (The only people that might are the people who marched through Charlottesville... those trying to pretend the South didn't lose, and the past 152 years haven't occurred.)

 

 

Agreed.

 

The logic behind saying we should stop honoring traitorous people who fought to preserve slavery and the logic behind saying we should stop teaching the Civil War in as accurate of a way as possible are completely opposite. They have nothing to do with each other. 

[mweb08]

Teaching their exploits does cause the person to be remembered... don't think it glorifies them.

Saying teaching the events of the Civil War is 1:1 match with statues honoring those who were attempting to leave the US; is a helluva stretch imo.

That's being polite. It's just flat out wrong.

However, there are some states and teachers that do a disservice with their bias towards the confederacy. So if the point was that the way the Civil War is taught in some places should change, that would be more aligned with the logic behind getting rid of that statues.

[mweb08]

I think he's pointing out that any anybody proposing a statue like that now would immediately be dismissed as a racist crank, but since the current statues were mostly put up by racist cranks 75 years ago, somehow people think they're all historic.

 

Very well said. 

[The Epic]

I think he's pointing out that any anybody proposing a statue like that now would immediately be dismissed as a racist crank, but since the current statues were put up 75 years ago (mostly by racist cranks), somehow people think they're all historic.

 

You have a better way with words than I do.

[The Epic]

You think this is bad?

 

They're about to change Yawkey Way.

[SportsGuy]

Teaching their exploits does cause the person to be remembered... don't think it glorifies them.
Saying teaching the events of the Civil War is 1:1 match with statues honoring those who were attempting to leave the US; is a helluva stretch imo.

Chris, you can't be this naive.

People make these leaps all the time.

If you don't think there is segment of the population that believe this, you are a fool.

And btw, this is a specific example on a larger point of...what is enough?

You guys are very narrow minded in that your view is the only view that matters. You guys don't look to the next step. There isn't always the next group of people willing to take something to another extreme.

And there are plenty of people that will justify it.

Note: in no way am what I am saying reflects on what my particular views are here. But, it does go back to that question I always ask..when is enough enough.

You guys seem to think that when you say so is a good enough answer..that shows both ignorance and arrogance. There are always many sides to an issue, which goes back to Antoines point of it being more
Complicated than that.

If you were tell me that the issue is 110% done with if statues come down, that's cool. But no way that's the case.

[mweb08]

The slippery slope argument isn't one that I care for much when it is defending something that is wrong, which is typically what it is used for.

I'm also unclear on what other extreme we should be worrying about (also saying another extreme suggests this is an extreme). Gotta come up with something better than not teaching the Civil War, because that's not at all an even somewhat logical next extreme. Or even next next next extreme. That is far from a commonly held position in the take down the confederate monument camp.

BTW, I consider all views I am aware of. But from a historical matter, this issue is pretty straightforward IMO. Of course many aren't historically literate on the topic and/or have bought into The Lost Cause nonsense.

I also try to be an empathetic person, and in this case, my empathy is with the people, especially the African Americans who have to see these monuments to traitorous people that fought to preserve slavery, and feel any combination of angry, sad, resentful, bewildered, and not appreciated or cared for in their own community.

I feel for them rather than the tiki torch carrying white nationalists, or the people who are not as openly bigoted, or the people that worry about something that won't happen as a result of this, or people that worry about something that might actually be next, but isn't really going to affect them anyway, or the people that are pretty apathetic and/or ignorant about it but would say in a poll that the statues should remain because their uncle told them so.

Beyond all that, having these monuments is sending a terrible message to all people that see them.

[The Epic]

Chris, you can't be this naive.

People make these leaps all the time.

If you don't think there is segment of the population that believe this, you are a fool.

And btw, this is a specific example on a larger point of...what is enough?

You guys are very narrow minded in that your view is the only view that matters. You guys don't look to the next step. There isn't always the next group of people willing to take something to another extreme.

And there are plenty of people that will justify it.

Note: in no way am what I am saying reflects on what my particular views are here. But, it does go back to that question I always ask..when is enough enough.

You guys seem to think that when you say so is a good enough answer..that shows both ignorance and arrogance. There are always many sides to an issue, which goes back to Antoines point of it being more
Complicated than that.

If you were tell me that the issue is 110% done with if statues come down, that's cool. But no way that's the case.

 

 

I stand by my point, but you can’t look at it that way. That’s almost exactly the issue that people put toward items like gay marriage, allowing women and minorities to vote, legalizing drugs, etc. Everybody has fears of slippery slopes, man, I get it. But that doesn’t mean that you allow injustices to stand.

 

This is an injustice. 

 

And to be fair, I believe that the issue would, in fact, end when the statues come down. If you look at the New Orleans situation, very few people are trying to justify the statues coming back, if any at all. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

Chris, you can't be this naive.

People make these leaps all the time.

If you don't think there is segment of the population that believe this, you are a fool.

And btw, this is a specific example on a larger point of...what is enough?

You guys are very narrow minded in that your view is the only view that matters. You guys don't look to the next step. There isn't always the next group of people willing to take something to another extreme.

And there are plenty of people that will justify it.

Note: in no way am what I am saying reflects on what my particular views are here. But, it does go back to that question I always ask..when is enough enough.

You guys seems to think that when you say so is a good enough answer..that shows both ignorance and arrogance.

 

Exactly what you are saying here... that I'm naive, arrogant, and narrow minded.... is how I feel about you... so at-least we can relate in that regard lol.

What did I say in my first post on this topic?

 

Here is where I think things get a bit difficult.

One of the rights that we have as Americans that should be celebrated is the right to peaceful protest. That right doesn't just exist for causes we believe in.

I can hate it, but if a bunch of asshole clowns want to peacefully protest for 'white power'... it's disgusting, but it's their right. When those protests turn violent, that's when they have to be shutdown.

It can be their right to protest, but if they are going to walk chanting slurs and degrading others...  do what's happening. Out them. Let people know who they are.

These assholes giving Nazi salutes, waiving the Confederate flag, chanting slurs...  are the absolute dregs of society. They are the complete opposite of what America is supposed to stand for.  They should be called out by everyone for being the pathetic clowns they are.

 

If one of those aholes wants to put up a Jefferson Davis statue on private grounds somewhere, whatever... that's their right.

 

 

In the italics above... I've bolded 3 separate times where I specifically stated examples of where my view is not the only view that matters. And in-fact said how opposing view points should maintain the protections they have by law.

What is enough? IDK lets look at issues on a case-by-case and decide rationally.

In this individual case, you have statues honoring people who wanted to leave the country in public grounds.
Taking down the statues does not erase that history... it simply doesn't honor them further (again on public grounds).

You've made an illogical leap to the position that the next step would be removing the Civil War from history books. That position is frankly asinine. But if I was wrong, and you were proven correct... and the next instance would be people actually debating removing teaching history... my opinion would be that's just dumb.


Frankly, what you've done here is just what I said in my initial comments on this topic. You use Whataboutism to argue, and it's sets up spurious hypotheticals.

This isn't you seeing the full picture, and us being trapped in the trees.

 

It's us discussing / debating the existing topic as it exists, and you holding onto ridiculous hypothetical to try and justify your point.

And what is your point exactly?

What it seems to be, is:

- You agreeing that the statues should probably be removed...
- That there is no real reason why they should be on public grounds...
- But removing them is an example of being PC... and that PC is the real issue facing America these days...
- That removing them could to X & Y... so, the better outcome is just to keep them?



 

 

 

[McNulty]

Radley Balko‏Verified account @radleybalko  2h2 hours ago

More

This isn't hard. The Founders are honored despite their sins. Confederate figures are honored precisely because of their sins.

 

Charles P. Pierce‏Verified account @CharlesPPierce  3h3 hours ago

More

Removing Confederate statues isn't sanitizing history, it's fumigating history. That difference is everything. http://www.esquire.c...statues-reason/ http://www.

 

Jamil Smith‏

Verified account@JamilSmith  21h21 hours ago

More

All these folks worried about erasing history when the Confederate statues come down will be thrilled to learn about the existence of books.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Did anybody's history class ever make it to WWII before the end of the school year?  Actually, that might be part of the problem these days.

[SportsGuy]

I actually don't think this is a case of PC or not. This may be the only issue I don't correlate the 2 though.

Many of these types of issues are exactly about PC and this country being overly pathetic. I just don't find this issue to be one of them.

That being said, there is always a next step in these causes.

And my question is and was, what if that next step is saying you can't teach about the civil war?

I mean, there are people who say the pledge of allegiance shouldn't be said. You think it's some crazy leap that some will say you can't teach about slavery and the civil war? Lol

[The Epic]

I actually don't think this is a case of PC or not. This may be the only issue I don't correlate the 2 though.

Many of these types of issues are exactly about PC and this country being overly pathetic. I just don't find this issue to be one of them.

That being said, there is always a next step in these causes.

And my question is and was, what if that next step is saying you can't teach about the civil war?

I mean, there are people who say the pledge of allegiance shouldn't be said. You think it's some crazy leap that some will say you can't teach about slavery and the civil war? Lol

 

To be REALLY honest, I'd say that the next step could be the Maryland flag. So if you want to start an argument there, you're welcome to do so. 

 

...and people will looooose their shit.

[mweb08]

Did anybody's history class ever make it to WWII before the end of the school year?  Actually, that might be part of the problem these days.

 

I taught U.S. History (starting with Reconstruction...the first half is taught the prior year) my first two years of teaching and we made it up to the end of the Cold War, and reviewed some more recent history before the Final, but I will admit that the Cold War and Vietnam were rushed and we skipped or glossed over some other stuff that happened in that time period.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I actually don't think this is a case of PC or not. This may be the only issue I don't correlate the 2 though.

Many of these types of issues are exactly about PC and this country being overly pathetic. I just don't find this issue to be one of them.

That being said, there is always a next step in these causes.

And my question is and was, what if that next step is saying you can't teach about the civil war?

I mean, there are people who say the pledge of allegiance shouldn't be said. You think it's some crazy leap that some will say you can't teach about slavery and the civil war? Lol

 

Then you debate that next issue / question as it arises.

The only people that wouldn't want the Civil War taught are those who still believe, "The South shall rise again."

Regarding the Pledge... the debate is mainly circled around that God shouldn't be included, and that people should have the right to decide if they want to say the words or not.  Bringing that up, is another example of what I said. It's an example of moving the goal posts from the current argument, to use as justification for doing nothing here.

There are many pathetic aspects of this county.  People being too PC is near the bottom of that list.