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Monuments, Statues, More


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#161 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:02 AM

Unfortunately, they all suck as people. Someone had to get voted in but when your choices are shitbag 1 or shitbag 2, your choices are always terrible.

There are enough people out there naive enough to think the elected officials actually care about the people but hey, maybe they will learn.

 

Rob, just because you largely only care about yourself and those immediately around you; does not mean that there are not many people out there with more altruistic motives.

You are projecting your own personal, self-motivated view of the world when you say that people are naive to believe that elected officials care about people.

 

To be clear, many don't.   Saying all don't is silly and just as naive as it would be to say that all do. You can judge them as individuals.



#162 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:04 AM

I think it's a fair point to say that, in both rural and city cases, the same people vote in the same people, and nothing changes. 

 

Because people fear the worst case scenario when you vote against the devil you know. 

 

And then, you get a total wild card that may screw up everything more. 

 

I mean...that's a valid point right now, don't you think?


Sure people vote for what they know.

The people running, are from the local populaces... and often more of the same.

New ideas are difficult.

But if the candidates are failures (and often they are); that's a failure on part of us as voters for not demanding better... or being more of part of the solution.



#163 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:06 AM

Even politicians that DO care about people genuinely seem to easily go corrupt as soon as they accept campaign donations from corporations. Until corporate money is out of politics, we are screwed.


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#164 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:08 AM

Rob, just because you largely only care about yourself and those immediately around you; does not mean that there are not many people out there with more altruistic motives.

You are projecting your own personal, self-motivated view of the world when you say that people are naive to believe that elected officials care about people.

To be clear, many don't. Saying all don't is silly and just as naive as it would be to say that all do. You can judge them as individuals.


99.9% don't care.

Bernie Sanders cares...he's ideas are totally whacky but he does care about the people. He's in the minority...a minority that has only a few people in it.

#165 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:09 AM

Even politicians that DO care about people genuinely seem to easily go corrupt as soon as they accept campaign donations from corporations. Until corporate money is out of politics, we are screwed.

 

That I do agree with.

Sorry I'm feeding this, and going down the rabbit hole here.

I need to stop. I'm done here.


Carry on.   Please bring this back to the Monuments, and then hopefully  back to the the intent of the thread.



#166 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:10 AM

Me too. It really is a slippery slope, and this has been a mostly strong conversation. 


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#167 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:11 AM

Even politicians that DO care about people genuinely seem to easily go corrupt as soon as they accept campaign donations from corporations. Until corporate money is out of politics, we are screwed.

Exactly right.

Most probably start off as good people who do care. And basically none of them end up that way.

Again..money and power. They start to grow as you move up the ladder.

So, what happens with money and power? You want more of it. Most of the time, no matter the industry, to obtain more money and more power, you have to step on people. You have to treat people like shit. You have to cut corners. Eventually, that becomes what you are all about because it's all you know now. You forget about the person who started off small and genuinely wanted to make a difference.

#168 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:20 AM

Vote for me. I'll do what's right. :-P

 

Step 1: Find a way out of Chris Davis' contract.

 

Step 2: Make it a rule that everyone who double-parks can get their car keyed until they move it. 

 

Step 3: I want my own statue. 


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#169 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:21 AM

Me too. It really is a slippery slope, and this has been a mostly strong conversation. 

 

I'm pleasantly surprised!



#170 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:23 AM

Late to the party but I feel this is an important point to make.

 

I'm currently vacationing in Tennessee, where just like everywhere else this issue of Confederate monuments is hotly debated. Specifically, I am just outside of Memphis, which desperately wants to remove statues of Jefferson Davis, Nathan Bedford Forrest*, and others from public spaces in the city. The city council actually voted on this a significant time ago (possibly a few years; I'm trying to remember from the news report I saw), and overwhelmingly supported removal.

 

*The Forrest statue is a much more complicated issue, on its own. It not only is a statue of the Memphis native, but it also marks the burial place of Forrest and his wife. So even if you can get the statue out there's a whole, uh, deeper problem on their hands.

 

Unfortunately, the state of Tennessee passed a law several years ago stating that all statues, memorials, and monuments located on public land are officially under the authority of a state historical commission, and may not be removed. Any relocation or removal must be preceded by a waiver from that commission. So the city of Memphis, wanting to have these statues at least relocated, have been waiting for a waiver from a commission appointed by a rural-dominated, Republican-heavy state government.

 

Nobody seems to be holding their breath.

 

So while Nickle mocks someone for wanting the kind of local government that most reasonable people on all sides of the issue would probably feel makes sense, the group that actually pays lip service to wanting that kind of local freedom takes it away (and, as we've seen in recent years, this isn't the only place where or issue on which this occurs).

 

...

 

Statues are not generally put up only for the purpose of remembrance. They are put up to glorify heroes and keep that glorification in the memory of future generations. That's why statues for the people we're talking about were put up in the first place. The statues of Lee and Jackson were put up to glorify great soldiers who fought in a lost cause (or the Lost Cause), because they were heroes to a significant number of people in a city and state where a significant number of people openly supported the losing side. The same for the Confederate Soldiers and Sailors statue, which glorifies the memory of the regular fighting men who came from this city and state and fought on the losing side. I honestly doubt the Dred Scot decision even came into the minds of most people when the Taney statues went up in Baltimore and Annapolis; they were to glorify the memory of a man that to this day held a a higher place in the national government than anyone else native to this state.

 

When it comes to remembrance of the Civil War, we have hundreds of places around the United States that exist for that purpose. They are national and state battlefields, national and state monuments, national and state cemeteries. Places where the Union managed to break the back of the rebellion, like Gettysburg and Vicksburg. Places where the Confederates managed to bloody the northern nose for a little while, like Shiloh and Fredericksburg. The place where the rebellion started at Fort Sumter, and the Army of Northern Virginia surrendered at Appomattox Court House. Even places like Fort Pillow and Andersonville, where the closest things to Nazi-level atrocities occurred on our continent.

 

Those places will be there to help all generations remember the war and what it did to the United States and how the outcomes and consequences will never stop reverberating through time. We don't need statues of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson or Nathan Bedford Forrest, or even Roger Taney, who did as much as any single person to light the fuse that shortly after fired a shell in Charleston Harbor. We have those places.

 

Other countries rarely glorify traitors, and rarely glorify losers. When they do, say in the case of William Wallace, for example, it is a person who fought a losing battle in the service of an oppressed people, and usually a people who eventually did earn their freedom. The rebellion of the 1860s was not an oppressed people attempting to throw off the shackles of a domineering power, no matter how many Southern historical writers want to push that view of the fight. They were a people fighting for the right to oppress and dominate others when the tides of history were receding from that beach. They were traitors to the United States of America, and they were losers. They earned remembrance, but never glory.

 

Bumping this because this is a great point, and really deserves further attention. 



#171 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:36 AM

Holy crap, David Hasselhoff was born in Baltimore.  There's one replacement statue taken care of.


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#172 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:40 AM

You know who really should get a statue?  Henrietta Lacks.



#173 NewMarketSean

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 08:56 AM

Harriett Tubman, born in Dorchester County, MD.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#174 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:11 AM

Is there a statue of Schaefer in the city?

#175 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:17 AM

Is there a statue of Schaefer in the city?

 

I think there's one at the Harbor. May be wrong.



#176 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:18 AM

Is there a statue of Schaefer in the city?

 

I think so.  I'm pretty sure I've seen one over by the visitors' center.



#177 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:23 AM

I don't really remember him but everyone seemed to like Schaefer. If you are putting statues up, he definitely should have, if he doesn't already.

Do you put up a Phelps one?

#178 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:23 AM

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#179 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:37 AM

I don't really remember him but everyone seemed to like Schaefer. If you are putting statues up, he definitely should have, if he doesn't already.

Do you put up a Phelps one?

 

To be honest, I wait on Phelps. He's done a lot, but he's young and dumb sometimes. 



#180 bnickle

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:07 AM

It's an unrealistic goal.

That old man taught his children (baby boomers) and they are . passing it to their children.

And btw, hate just isn't against black people even though I know that's what everyone wants to focus on.

We are going to have generations of hate towards Muslims. You have people who hates Jews. The list goes on and on.

It's never going to stop. The noise can get quieter but it will always be there.

This is ageism and it should piss people off as much as racism,sexism or any other group being discriminated against. "Old" people are sadly abused, manipulated, and discrimated against as much or more than anyone in this country.




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