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Monuments, Statues, More


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#181 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:13 AM

"Old" people are sadly abused, manipulated, and discrimated against as much or more than anyone in this country.

 

...I mean, yeah, but...what are you even arguing here? Older people won't have children that they influence? I don't follow.



#182 bnickle

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:24 AM


...I mean, yeah, but...what are you even arguing here? Older people won't have children that they influence? I don't follow.

Rob essentially just put the current race problems on two generations of Americans. Which is too convient, simple and flat out incorrect.

#183 DJ MC

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:38 AM

Rob essentially just put the current race problems on two generations of Americans. Which is too convient, simple and flat out incorrect.


It's also not how I read what he said. Racism didn't start with the Greatest Generation and continue to the Baby Boomers. The point is that this is something that gets passed from generation to generation. Each generation sees less and less continuation of that type of thinking, but it isn't eradicated.

Education plays a major part in that as well.
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#184 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:44 AM

Rob essentially just put the current race problems on two generations of Americans. Which is too convient, simple and flat out incorrect.


Didn't mean it that way. All I'm saying is there is still a lot of generation left that was around in the 20s, 30s, 40s.

It's kind of like when we discuss the MlB HOF voters...as the "old school" guys stop voting, we will see the Tim Raines' of the world get i quicker. There's just more information now and there's more open-mindedness and there was before.

If you want to call that ageism, that's fine. I call it factual.

And, to keep going with that, you learn from your parents. That's how you choose who you are and how you conduct yourself...by how you are taught at home.

As more generations realize that way of thinking is absurd, they won't push it on their children in the same way it used to be pushed.

#185 NewMarketSean

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:46 AM

I thought the movie 42 made a really good point of how racism is passed down from generation to generation, where the father is heckling Robinson, calling him the N-word, the man's son is watching him, hearing what he says, and then starts to do the same thing. It was a tragic, heartbreaking scene in an otherwise mediocre movie.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#186 bnickle

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:51 AM


I thought the movie 42 made a really good point of how racism is passed down from generation to generation, where the father is heckling Robinson, calling him the N-word, the man's son is watching him, hearing what he says, and then starts to do the same thing. It was a tragic, heartbreaking scene in an otherwise mediocre movie.

It's too common to blame your parents and the generations before for the things you do. Yes, this type of thing happened 50 or 60 years ago. It's still happening today and it will still happen 50 years from now. Eventually that kid grows up and makes his own choices and decisions that are all his. If he passes that down to his children that falls squarely on him. Not his father. Not his grandfather. Personal accountability and responsibility.

#187 NewMarketSean

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 10:53 AM

It's too common to blame your parents and the generations before for the things you do. Yes, this type of thing happened 50 or 60 years ago. It's still happening today and it will still happen 50 years from now. Eventually that kid grows up and makes his own choices and decisions that are all his and if he passes that down to his children that falls squarely on him. Not his father. Not his grandfather. Personal accountability and responsibility.

 

It's a major contributing factor. You are your environment in many ways. Obviously parents play a big part in who you are as a person.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#188 SportsGuy

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:03 AM

It's too common to blame your parents and the generations before for the things you do. Yes, this type of thing happened 50 or 60 years ago. It's still happening today and it will still happen 50 years from now. Eventually that kid grows up and makes his own choices and decisions that are all his. If he passes that down to his children that falls squarely on him. Not his father. Not his grandfather. Personal accountability and responsibility.


Branden isn't wrong here. At some point, you do have to take accountability for your actions.

That being said, when you are taught something for years and years, it becomes part of who you are. That doesn't mean you can't make decisions on your own but still, you are instilled values for 15-20 years, have them branded into your mind for your childhood and young adult life.

Much like education, this all starts at home. The less it's taught at home, the less hate there will be.

#189 mweb08

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:08 AM

Good conversation here, very informative. I've seriously learned a lot reading through this, and it's changed my perspective on the removal of statues. 

 

With that being said, this isn't going to move the needle in terms of eliminating racism and hate, IMO. While it can't hurt, this is far from the real, underlying issues behind racism/bigotry/hate, etc. 

 

What was your perspective before?

 

It may not be a game breaker when it comes to racism, but I do think it would be helpful. And regardless, it removes these monuments that make people like me mad, but can elicit more intense and hurtful emotions in African Americans. 



#190 bnickle

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:17 AM

Branden isn't wrong here. At some point, you do have to take accountability for your actions.

That being said, when you are taught something for years and years, it becomes part of who you are. That doesn't mean you can't make decisions on your own but still, you are instilled values for 15-20 years, have them branded into your mind for your childhood and young adult life.

Much like education, this all starts at home. The less it's taught at home, the less hate there will be.

Sure. I'm not dismissing environmental factors and the importance of proper education and values in the home. Ultimately, everyone comes to a point in there life where they are able to think for themselves and own their choices and decisions.

#191 mweb08

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:21 AM

I had a professor in college teach us that the Civil War was not about slavery but state rights. There were many black people in that class, too. I remember thinking even at the age of 18-19 that it was a bunch of bullshit.

 

And this is not just a matter of bias and two sides of the story as Nickle seemed to be suggesting, this is simply incorrect and should not be taught in history class.

 

It might be an interesting topic to get into if the lesson was focused on how there has been this attempt to re-brand the Confederacy and how that has affected our country and how it relates to the glorification of the Confederacy with the monuments and the flag being displayed so prevalently and often prominently. 

 

Speaking of that, I really do think how we have and continue to teach and present the Civil War as a society has held this nation back in terms of healing and moving beyond it, which we have yet to fully do. We have yet to fully accept it for what it was; rather, we still debate what it was and how we should remember and glorify it. This should not have been a battle of competing narratives over the past 150 years, it should have been an accurate and full acceptance of what happened and then slavery and the Confederacy should have been treated like Nazism has been in Germany. If that had been done, our nation would be much better for it IMO. It's too late to correct the errors of how it's been handled to date, but we can at least get it right for future generations to come. 



#192 Nigel Tufnel

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:22 AM

I think things progress slowly, but they do progress.  There eventually came a point when people believed that Tim Raines was a Hall of Famer, just like there came a point where people thought the confederate statues should be moved.  I guess if you want to you can stand on the sidelines and say "but 2,600 hits" or "but history" as progress marches right by you, but that seems kind of sad and pointless to me.



#193 DuffMan

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:25 AM

http://verysmartbrot...urgh-1797950305

 

Can we at least all agree that the statue referenced in that article needs to come down?



#194 NewMarketSean

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

Sure. I'm not dismissing environmental factors and the importance of proper education and values in the home. Ultimately, everyone comes to a point in there life where they are able to think for themselves and own their choices and decisions.

 

Yes, but some people don't even know they're making choices and decisions when they've been so ingrained. Some people aren't self-aware. Some people think they're right. And we all know that one of the hardest things humans can do is admitting they're wrong and make the appropriate changes to back that up.


I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#195 mweb08

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:42 AM

I think it's a fair point to say that, in both rural and city cases, the same people vote in the same people, and nothing changes. 

 

Because people fear the worst case scenario when you vote against the devil you know. 

 

And then, you get a total wild card that may screw up everything more. 

 

I mean...that's a valid point right now, don't you think?

 

A few thoughts on this topic:

 

I think the issues of the inner cities are too much for a city government to realistically overcome without tremendous support at the state and federal level. For the most part, that support won't come because it would be political suicide. Some things can get done that would not be political suicide though, and of course like dealing with racism, things can be done to help out on a smaller level. 

 

BTW, those issues stem from racism, and I'm mostly talking about institutional racism. This also includes the institutional racism that goes back to the time of slavery. The effects of past institutional racism don't just die when the policy changes, rather it acts like credit card debt does. Institutional racism is also still alive and well. 

 

As for urban vs rural voters, I think there's a narrative out there that is certainly not always false, but closer to false than it is to true. What I'm talking about is the narrative that urban voters vote in large part due to identity politics while the white voters in rural and suburban districts vote in large part due to economic issues. 

 

Well I'm not preaching to the choir in my urban 99% African American school as much as some might suspect. Their opinions on abortion and gay marriage for instance are often not in line with those that their older relatives vote for. Hispanics would generally fall into the same category, but their would typically be more in favor of immigration than African Americans. Therefore, these people are largely voting based on their economic interests.

 

Meanwhile, the lower and middle class rural and suburban white voters, especially the male ones, are more likely to vote based on social and cultural interests than what would actually help them economically.  



#196 DJ MC

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:43 AM

http://verysmartbrot...urgh-1797950305

Can we at least all agree that the statue referenced in that article needs to come down?


That article makes a great point about the idea of why "now" with these statues. It isn't that people didn't care and now, suddenly, they do. They literally didn't realize that the statues existed. They fade into the landscape of our daily lives so that even if we notice that something is there it doesn't register as meaningful.

Now before anyone jumps to the fallicous conclusion of, "if you never noticed them, why does it matter," think about who was noticing these statues for years. The black population, and the Confederate-sympathizing population. Once the mainstream population started finding out about their existence, though, the realization that they were a problem came very quickly.
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#197 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:49 AM

Now before anyone jumps to the fallicous conclusion of, "if you never noticed them, why does it matter," think about who was noticing these statues for years. The black population, and the Confederate-sympathizing population. Once the mainstream population started finding out about their existence, though, the realization that they were a problem came very quickly.

 

I'm not saying this angrily or anything, but I just want to note that I made this exact comment a ways back. Black Issues, for lack of a better term, don't get traction until white people start thinking that it's a problem. 



#198 mweb08

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:51 AM

In terms of environmental factors vs personal responsibility...

 

Both are very important in terms of how someone conducts themselves and what their values and beliefs are. 

 

As far as emphasizing the personal responsibility over the environment in terms of beliefs on matters of race, well I compare that to beliefs on matters of religion and matters of politics. How many people that were raised in a household where they were strongly influenced on religious and/or political views can honestly say they have been truly open minded on those issues? However many people say that they have, it's a fraction of it.

 

So yes, it's possible to completely change your views, but if we were using an advanced stat here, I'm guessing it would show that it's not very probable. 

 

However, if those people got a good education, perhaps moved away for college and/or a job, they chances of being truly open minded would improve. 



#199 DJ MC

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:52 AM

I'm not saying this angrily or anything, but I just want to note that I made this exact comment a ways back. Black Issues, for lack of a better term, don't get traction until white people start thinking that it's a problem.


Right. It's the Chris Long discussion.
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#200 The Epic

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 11:54 AM

Right. It's the Chris Long discussion.

 

DUDE YOU READ MY MIND






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