^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 06 June 2014 - 09:20 PM
Dude's broke, and he's getting paid to interview on OTL. He's had an axe to grind toward UNC since -before- he graduated. I'm sure that what he said has some merit, but if you don't think that he had some incentive to be liberal with the facts, then...yeah.
(Also, I'm firmly in the "this happens everywhere, they just got caught, something has to be done" camp.)
CFB Analyst
Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:05 PM
Why? I got my degrees in 2004 and 2005, and by no means do I think that my degree is devalued due to how a school may or may not treat the academics of their athletes. The situations are mutually exclusive.
I don't know how many of these guys actually got degrees, so maybe it's a moot point, but I'd feel a lot differently. Look at it another way....if you were competing for a job with one of these guys (not as a pro athlete) and all else being equal the employer leans towards them because the university that they "earned" their degree from is slightly more prestigious than the one you honestly worked 4 years to earn, how would you feel?
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:25 PM
I don't know how many of these guys actually got degrees, so maybe it's a moot point, but I'd feel a lot differently. Look at it another way....if you were competing for a job with one of these guys (not as a pro athlete) and all else being equal the employer leans towards them because the university that they "earned" their degree from is slightly more prestigious than the one you honestly worked 4 years to earn, how would you feel?
If they get a degree by these means and actually put it to productive use, then congratulations...you used your immense revenue-generating talent to beat the system. The only reason I'd be mad is because I didn't interview good enough to win the job outright.
CFB Analyst
Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:30 PM
If they get a degree by these means and actually put it to productive use, then congratulations...you used your immense revenue-generating talent to beat the system. The only reason I'd be mad is because I didn't interview good enough to win the job outright.
There are very few places where life presents a level playing field. I always thought that a college classroom could and should be one of them. Obviously I'm in the minority there. Oh well.
CFB Analyst
Posted 06 June 2014 - 10:40 PM
2005 UNC champs relied on suspect classes, records show
Rashad McCants was not the only UNC men’s basketball player from the 2005 national championship team who relied heavily on African studies classes that didn’t meet, according to whistleblower Mary Willingham, who tutored athletes during that period.
Data she provided to The News & Observer show that five members of that team, including at least four key players, accounted for a combined 38 enrollments in classes that have been identified as confirmed or suspected lecture classes that never met. The data also show that the five athletes accounted for 13 enrollments that were accurately identified as independent studies.
Banned
Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:11 PM
HOF
Posted 07 June 2014 - 08:31 AM
All I know is that I'm going to go and get my Master's in African Studies at UNC.
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:20 AM
There are very few places where life presents a level playing field. I always thought that a college classroom could and should be one of them. Obviously I'm in the minority there. Oh well.
I think you're confusing "a college education" with "the complete institution of higher learning". If an athlete gets a full ride, takes bird classes and ends up getting a great job elsewhere as a result, that's like problem #85 on the list of things wrong with this situation. The problem isn't that they're going to school, getting a sham degree and graduating. The problem is that a lot of them just don't want to go to school.
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:21 AM
All I know is that I'm going to go and get my Master's in African Studies at UNC.
Knowing me should at least get your 12-15 A(ntoine)P credits, right?
HOF
Posted 07 June 2014 - 09:53 AM
Knowing me should at least get your 12-15 A(ntoine)P credits, right?
YES!!
I just assumed the whole class was talking to you every day for 12 weeks.
Oh, and watching "Roots".
HOF
Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:09 AM
YES!!
I just assumed the whole class was talking to you every day for 12 weeks.
Oh, and watching "Roots".
HOF
Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:11 AM
CFB Analyst
Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:16 AM
I think you're confusing "a college education" with "the complete institution of higher learning". If an athlete gets a full ride, takes bird classes and ends up getting a great job elsewhere as a result, that's like problem #85 on the list of things wrong with this situation. The problem isn't that they're going to school, getting a sham degree and graduating. The problem is that a lot of them just don't want to go to school.
Agree with the last sentence. In an ideal world, there would be a more viable way for athletes to pursue a professional career without going to school. But the reality is that the professional leagues aren't going to invest the kind of money it takes in a decent developmental league (since they will likely never be profitable), the colleges aren't going to give up all the money they are making off sports, and going overseas (for basketball) just isn't an attractive enough option for players. To you, the academic fraud and it's impact on the university as a whole might be #85, but I have a much bigger problem with it. Just my opinion.
HOF
Posted 07 June 2014 - 11:39 AM
Agree with the last sentence. In an ideal world, there would be a more viable way for athletes to pursue a professional career without going to school. But the reality is that the professional leagues aren't going to invest the kind of money it takes in a decent developmental league (since they will likely never be profitable), the colleges aren't going to give up all the money they are making off sports, and going overseas (for basketball) just isn't an attractive enough option for players. To you, the academic fraud and it's impact on the university as a whole might be #85, but I have a much bigger problem with it. Just my opinion.
It's a win-win for both sides. Colleges get a platform they wouldn't get otherwise to showcase their schools (any major college Prez is going to tell you, "like it or not, college athletics is a big deal." The pro leagues get a de facto developmental league, they aren't responsible for maintaining.
You take away the schools and replace them with minor league names, you aren't holding the Final Four in 100k seat stadiums OR investing millions upon millions in SOTA facilities.
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:14 PM
Antoine...I'm generally curious about your opinion on something here.
I was listening to Mike and Mike yesterday and when this story broke, Jemele Hill and Michael
Smith(who were on the show) talked how this bothers them because of the course being talked about here and how he should have taken more pride in the history of African Americans...does tar thought cross your mind and, if so, does that bother you?
The thought crossed my mind several times (I believe Bomani Jones brought it up too), but I can't say that it bothers me. It doesn't necessarily matter what the courses were, because, if he's telling the absolute truth, these courses were suggested to him. I'm sure there's other, legitimate AFAM courses that individuals could take to learn about history (I took a grand total of one, and it was a literature class, with mostly discussion...and a little bit of arguing, because hell, we're in North Carolina, and people want to play Devil's Advocate for fun. I got a B.), but he chose not to do that.
In short, he didn't want to educate himself, and that's fine.
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:22 PM
Agree with the last sentence. In an ideal world, there would be a more viable way for athletes to pursue a professional career without going to school. But the reality is that the professional leagues aren't going to invest the kind of money it takes in a decent developmental league (since they will likely never be profitable), the colleges aren't going to give up all the money they are making off sports, and going overseas (for basketball) just isn't an attractive enough option for players. To you, the academic fraud and it's impact on the university as a whole might be #85, but I have a much bigger problem with it. Just my opinion.
That's the thing, though. There is next to no impact. My degree hasn't suddenly become less valuable because people think some athletes got over. Because...and I think we agree on this here...that's just the way it is.
McCants, had he graduated, would have likely gotten $80,000 worth of education, not to mention perks (which...come on...you know he had), housing, and other stuff, in addition to that degree. I would have to believe that he, Felton, and May brought more than that to the University from their own blood and sweat over those three years. Most...MOST...kids aren't going there and bringing in that type of cash. Psycho T brought in more than that, more than likely, and he knows Swahili!
ETA: In my ideal world, these players would get paid as contractors. The opportunity for free education would be an option, not a must, and they'd have free reign of the school. I know there's a ton of reasons why that can't happen, but it'd be nice. They'd have the NBA option, and there'd still be players for universities to get behind.
And...just for full disclosure...I chose UNC as my school strictly because they have an awesome athletic program. I could have gone to other good academic institutions, but I wouldn't have had as much fun, since a lot of my life is sports-related.
CFB Analyst
Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:31 PM
That's the thing, though. There is next to no impact. My degree hasn't suddenly become less valuable because people think some athletes got over. Because...and I think we agree on this here...that's just the way it is.
McCants, had he graduated, would have likely gotten $80,000 worth of education, not to mention perks (which...come on...you know he had), housing, and other stuff, in addition to that degree. I would have to believe that he, Felton, and May brought more than that to the University from their own blood and sweat over those three years. Most...MOST...kids aren't going there and bringing in that type of cash. Psycho T brought in more than that, more than likely, and he knows Swahili!
ETA: In my ideal world, these players would get paid as contractors. The opportunity for free education would be an option, not a must, and they'd have free reign of the school. I know there's a ton of reasons why that can't happen, but it'd be nice. They'd have the NBA option, and there'd still be players for universities to get behind.
And...just for full disclosure...I chose UNC as my school strictly because they have an awesome athletic program. I could have gone to other good academic institutions, but I wouldn't have had as much fun, since a lot of my life is sports-related.
I've never said that the players don't deserve what they get as far as the free education and other monetary "perks" for all the work they put in (and we all know it's more than the NCAA-mandated 20 hours). If you read my posts here, you'd know that I advocate that they don't get nearly enough. However, when it comes to earning the degree, I think they should have to meet all the same requirements as every other student does.
Maybe a compromise would be to create a whole new curriculum for athletes who aren't interested in a traditional college education. Instead of a Bachelor or Arts or Sciences, they could develop a Bachelor of Athletics. The athletes that pursue it would earn credits by participating in their chosen sport, but could also have a class or two each semester in subjects that would be more practical for them; like nutrition, basic physiology, money management, etc. If they complete it, they would still have something they could apply to their lives whether they go professional or not, but their degree would be more indicative of the actual work they put in to earn it while they were in college. And in no way would that preclude the athlete who wants the B.A. or B.S. from enrolling in one of those degree programs, it's just an alternative for those who don't.
^^ That's my name. Don't wear it out.
Posted 08 June 2014 - 12:30 PM
I've never said that the players don't deserve what they get as far as the free education and other monetary "perks" for all the work they put in (and we all know it's more than the NCAA-mandated 20 hours). If you read my posts here, you'd know that I advocate that they don't get nearly enough. However, when it comes to earning the degree, I think they should have to meet all the same requirements as every other student does.
Maybe a compromise would be to create a whole new curriculum for athletes who aren't interested in a traditional college education. Instead of a Bachelor or Arts or Sciences, they could develop a Bachelor of Athletics. The athletes that pursue it would earn credits by participating in their chosen sport, but could also have a class or two each semester in subjects that would be more practical for them; like nutrition, basic physiology, money management, etc. If they complete it, they would still have something they could apply to their lives whether they go professional or not, but their degree would be more indicative of the actual work they put in to earn it while they were in college. And in no way would that preclude the athlete who wants the B.A. or B.S. from enrolling in one of those degree programs, it's just an alternative for those who don't.
I get what you're saying; I just don't agree. I think guys that have next to no choice of going to college in order to pursue their career, and generate revenue for those colleges essentially for free...should be given a pass in these situations. They SHOULD go to class and get that free education, but I'm not mad at them if they don't; I'd just think that they have their priorities screwed up.
Your idea has merit, but frankly, this wouldn't solve anything, because kids would still not go. I still think you're under the impression that athletes working "toward" "legitimate" majors ruins the ones that really do it...but not only is there not much to show that this is the case, but there isn't much to show that it matters if it IS the case.
HOF
Posted 08 June 2014 - 12:47 PM
I get what you're saying; I just don't agree. I think guys that have next to no choice of going to college in order to pursue their career, and generate revenue for those colleges essentially for free...should be given a pass in these situations. They SHOULD go to class and get that free education, but I'm not mad at them if they don't; I'd just think that they have their priorities screwed up.
Your idea has merit, but frankly, this wouldn't solve anything, because kids would still not go. I still think you're under the impression that athletes working "toward" "legitimate" majors ruins the ones that really do it...but not only is there not much to show that this is the case, but there isn't much to show that it matters if it IS the case.
I see what you're saying but I don't think they should given a pass. Plenty of people have to go to college for their careers -- lawyers, doctors, teachers. The only athletes who really have to go to college are NFL players, since you can't get drafted until you are 3 years removed and there's pro international leagues. The NBA players have the option of the D-League or international. Let me put it this way, if Andrew Wiggins just decided he wasn't going to play last year, I still think he would've been drafted pretty high. I don't think the same thing is true in other sports.
CFB Analyst
Posted 08 June 2014 - 05:41 PM
I get what you're saying; I just don't agree. I think guys that have next to no choice of going to college in order to pursue their career, and generate revenue for those colleges essentially for free...should be given a pass in these situations. They SHOULD go to class and get that free education, but I'm not mad at them if they don't; I'd just think that they have their priorities screwed up.
Your idea has merit, but frankly, this wouldn't solve anything, because kids would still not go. I still think you're under the impression that athletes working "toward" "legitimate" majors ruins the ones that really do it...but not only is there not much to show that this is the case, but there isn't much to show that it matters if it IS the case.
Like I said, my idea was just a compromise, which is never a perfect solution. I think you might get more of the kids to do that work, because some of them might actually see the benefit that knowledge would have on their daily lives vs. a 19th Century English Literature class. And for those that choose not to go the athletic curriculum classes either, then they don't leave college with that degree. Their choice.
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