813 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

I think it's selfish to call a guy selfish for not being comfortable with putting something into his body.  You can think he's wrong, sure (I do, as I took the jab myself).  But I'm pretty strongly opposed to any of these vaccine mandates.  Not everyone who refuses to get the vaccine is a selfish whack job and we continue to do a disservice by drawing these unnecessary lines in the sand.

 

It becomes selfish when he knows his decision is going to cost a dozen or more people their jobs.  I hadn't thought about that aspect for a head coach, but assistants are very heavily tied to the coach, so I think that is a part that can fairly be held against a head coach that wouldn't apply for someone who is making the same decision without the collateral damage.

 

The "pro-vaccine but anti-mandate" argument held a lot more ground for me before the vaccine had full FDA approval.  We mandate many vaccines.  Maybe not for employment, but we do for schools which are a prerequisite for almost every type of employment.  Now that the covid vaccine is on an equal ground as things like the MMR vaccine, I think the argument against it because it's not proven falls flat.

 

If people want to not get it and accept those consequences, that's fine.  But they don't get to play the victim card.  They aren't victims.  This is an active free choice they are making.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I think it's selfish to call a guy selfish for not being comfortable with putting something into his body. You can think he's wrong, sure (I do, as I took the jab myself). But I'm pretty strongly opposed to any of these vaccine mandates. Not everyone who refuses to get the vaccine is a selfish whack job and we continue to do a disservice by drawing these unnecessary lines in the sand.

What, if any circumstances do you believe the government should intervene and mandate something? Is it ever acceptable under any circumstances?

[glenn__davis]

If the reason is "the guvmint ain't gonna tell me what to do", yes, I think that's selfish.  

 

I don't think it's selfish for someone to legitimately be uneasy about the process to approve the vaccine.  Do I think they're misinformed/wrong?  Yes....probably.  But not selfish.

[glenn__davis]

What, if any circumstances do you believe the government should intervene and mandate something? Is it ever acceptable under any circumstances?

 

In the context of the pandemic or in general?

 

Obviously in general the government mandates stuff all the time that I have no issue with.  I'm fine that they tell me I can't kill someone because I don't like them or that I can't drive 120 MPH even though it's awesome.

 

As far as the pandemic - at this point, I'm at a spot where I trust the scientists enough to say that my wife and I chose to get ourselves  vaccinated and after much debate and research we chose to have our age-eligible kids vaccinated as well.  But I don't trust them enough to say that I demand that everyone reach that same decision.  

 

Again, my bigger issue here isn't whether or not you should/should not get vaccinated.  In my opinion, I personally think he would be wise to get himself vaccinated.  It's the broad characterization that anyone who doesn't get the vaccine is "selfish" that I take issue with.  

[Mackus]

It's the broad characterization that anyone who doesn't get the vaccine is "selfish" that I take issue with.  

 

I'm not sure that broad characterization exists.  I've only seen this guy called "selfish" here.  Others that have made the same decision (like Kyrie Irving or Lamar Jackson) aren't being called selfish, just uninformed (or worse).  Lamar did get a bit of flack, fairly IMO, for being hypocritical when he says the only thing he cares about is winning while also not being vaccinated (if he still remains so). 

 

But this coach is being called selfish, because his decision directly harms others.  His players I'm not too worried about, I don't think they have a strong gripe against the coach unless the next guy yanks their scholarships which I doubt happens.  But his assistants absolutely do.  They're likely to lose their jobs when a new coach takes over, all because the last guy put his choices (however earnest or misguided they may be) ahead of everything else.  That's what being selfish is.  Thinking of yourself first and foremost.  

[You Play to Win the Game]

I firmly believe it's selfish to not get vaccinated at this point. I view it as civic duty. I don't want kids today (including my future children if I'm lucky enough) to live in a world where we're still dealing with covid because selfish assholes, who will trust doctors and scientists plenty enough if they get a cancer diagnosis, but definitely not when they recommend a vaccine, refuse to do the right thing. They trust the Roger Stone and Russia meme farm on Facebook more than the overwhelming scientific consensus.

And if I were one of those people, I'd rather be called selfish than a blatant F'ing moron, which is what they are.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Here's the latest total dumbassery on this. A private school in Miami, providing disinformation and painting a picture where vaccinated people are more dangerous than unvaccinated people, and any student who gets vaccinated has to stay home for 30 days.

https://www.google.c...e255101612.html

[glenn__davis]

I'm not sure that broad characterization exists.  I've only seen this guy called "selfish" here.  Others that have made the same decision (like Kyrie Irving or Lamar Jackson) aren't being called selfish, just uninformed (or worse).  Lamar did get a bit of flack, fairly IMO, for being hypocritical when he says the only thing he cares about is winning while also not being vaccinated (if he still remains so). 

 

But this coach is being called selfish, because his decision directly harms others.  His players I'm not too worried about, I don't think they have a strong gripe against the coach unless the next guy yanks their scholarships which I doubt happens.  But his assistants absolutely do.  They're likely to lose their jobs when a new coach takes over, all because the last guy put his choices (however earnest or misguided they may be) ahead of everything else.  That's what being selfish is.  Thinking of yourself first and foremost.  

 

That broad characterization 100% exists.  Maybe not on this board, but definitely elsewhere.  I've seen it referenced countless times.

 

Nevermind, I just read Ricker's post.  It definitely exists on this board

 

As for your 2nd paragraph, you think it's selfish because you're coming from your own perspective that the vaccine is safe.  Many, right or wrong, do not believe so.  If I were one of his assistants, I would believe it would be selfish on my part to expect him to get the vaccine for my sake if he didn't feel comfortable getting it.

 

Now again - if he's not getting it because "screw the government and their mandates" - yes, that is different.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten it and has a legitimate reason for it. Every thing I hear with this BS is, screw the government and their mandates. Which is why I have the attitude that I have. It is unfathomable to me, for these morons to completely shit all over science and medicine, yet if they got a serious diagnosis, they'd B-line to the nearest specialist they can for treatment. 

 

I'm an open minded guy, truly - so if someone wants to present a coherent argument on why I'm wrong to feel this way, have at it. 

 

It's as if people enjoy living during pandemic times or something.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I think it's selfish to call a guy selfish for not being comfortable with putting something into his body.  You can think he's wrong, sure (I do, as I took the jab myself).  But I'm pretty strongly opposed to any of these vaccine mandates.  Not everyone who refuses to get the vaccine is a selfish whack job and we continue to do a disservice by drawing these unnecessary lines in the sand.

People will lose their jobs over his choice….some of those people may have been just as uneasy as him, but they still got vaccinated.  Selfish? You bet. Think, I’m selfish for stating so? Fine, doesn’t change my opinion.

[glenn__davis]

I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten it and has a legitimate reason for it. Every thing I hear with this BS is, screw the government and their mandates. Which is why I have the attitude that I have. It is unfathomable to me, for these morons to completely shit all over science and medicine, yet if they got a serious diagnosis, they'd B-line to the nearest specialist they can for treatment. 

 

I'm an open minded guy, truly - so if someone wants to present a coherent argument on why I'm wrong to feel this way, have at it. 

 

It's as if people enjoy living during pandemic times or something.

 

The coherent argument is easy - people don't trust the science behind the vaccine.  You can think they're idiots/morons/insert insult here, and that's fine.  I probably side with you on that aspect of it more than I do with them.  But that's not selfish.

[glenn__davis]

People will lose their jobs over his choice….some of those people may have been just as uneasy as him, but they still got vaccinated.  Selfish? You bet. Think, I’m selfish for stating so? Fine, doesn’t change my opinion.

 

I mean the bolded part is complete conjecture and therefore irrelevant, unless you know some them personally or they've made public statements.

 

Don't really care if you change your opinion or not.  Just trying to do my own little part to dwindle the extreme viewpoints being lobbed by both sides.  But I'll reiterate that I think it would be far more selfish for an assistant to say "I demand that YOU get the vaccine so I can keep MY job."

[Mackus]

But I'll reiterate that I think it would be far more selfish for an assistant to say "I demand that YOU get the vaccine so I can keep MY job."

 

That's not how it works.  It's not the assistants instilling the mandate. 

 

The coach has to live with making a decision which put his own self-interests (logic be damned) ahead of the welfare of his assistants.  It's a direct correlation.  Him making the decision to put them at risk is absolutely selfish.  You may think its justifiable selfishness, but it's still selfishness.  It's the very definition of being selfish, where you choose to do things for your benefit even if it may negatively impact others.  

[You Play to Win the Game]

The coherent argument is easy - people don't trust the science behind the vaccine.  You can think they're idiots/morons/insert insult here, and that's fine.  I probably side with you on that aspect of it more than I do with them.  But that's not selfish.

 

So if it weren't covid-19, and instead were some dystopian virus like in Walking Dead or something - at what point would you be pushed to come over to my side with this way of thinking? At what point do you consider it selfish for people not to trust people who know what the hell they're talking about? 

[You Play to Win the Game]

BTW, our system, across the board, not specific to any party, is to blame for this mistrust. Sure, the GOP and their minions have certainly pulled out all the stops to politicize distrust in government, zero doubt about that. But it's the overall system that reinforces those thoughts and beliefs.

 

There have been so many lies and missteps across the board. When the government doesn't trust it's people by giving them accurate and timely information, this is the result.

 

-We were told not to use masks when this first started

-We were told if we locked down seriously for a month or two, we could largely get past this (last March)

-We were told that vaccines were 90+% effective against the virus, not just death

-We weren't told of the blood clotting side effect with J&J vaccine, even though they knew

-We weren't told about the waning immunity, even though they knew from jump street

-We weren't told boosters may be a thing (at least by the system itself, some independent doctors suggested that up front though)

-We weren't told of the side effects such as myocarditis in young men, even though they knew it existed

-We weren't told that the Pfizer mRNA vaccine was two 25 MG doses, while Moderna was two 100 MG doses

 

As angry as I am at the GOP, it's really the system overall that has led us to this point - and it doesn't only pertain to this pandemic, the government has been treating us this way the entire time. So it isn't surprising when this happens and people "don't trust the science." 

 

So here I am, at least willing to look at the underlying factors that lead to distrust. Yet, with everything we know, and the massive amounts of inoculations, there's just no excuse at this point not to overcome that primal fear, and use our evolved brains and do the right thing. 

[glenn__davis]

That's not how it works.  It's not the assistants instilling the mandate. 

 

The coach has to live with making a decision which put his own self-interests (logic be damned) ahead of the welfare of his assistants.  It's a direct correlation.  Him making the decision to put them at risk is absolutely selfish.  You may think its justifiable selfishness, but it's still selfishness.  It's the very definition of being selfish, where you choose to do things for your benefit even if it may negatively impact others.  

 

Got it.  I think we're getting somewhere here!

 

You are correct - in this specific instance, the coach has the power to make the decision and the assistants do not.  My point was not to draw a direct parallel there, but rather to paint an example of what I would think a more selfish decision would look like.

 

And yes - by a dictionary definition, the coach's decision is probably selfish.  But obviously we generally don't speak in raw definitions, there are connotations.  "Selfish" is usually succeeded by "jerk".  I don't think the litmus test for "is someone a decent human being" should be "did they get the Covid-19 vaccine."

 

And I wouldn't say I think it's "justifiable selfishness", because at the end of the day, I think he's wrong and should get the vaccine.  "Understandable selfishness" would maybe be a better term.

[glenn__davis]

So if it weren't covid-19, and instead were some dystopian virus like in Walking Dead or something - at what point would you be pushed to come over to my side with this way of thinking? At what point do you consider it selfish for people not to trust people who know what the hell they're talking about? 

 

I don't have a good answer for the 1st question.  All I know is I'm not there yet.  

 

As for the 2nd - my doctor specifically advised us to not have our kids vaccinated.  I don't know his full set of political beliefs but he's not some crazy anti-vaxxer.  One of my best friends is a doctor who has not gotten his teenage sons vaccinated because he says they are healthy and there is no need.  There are many other examples of medical professionals questioning the vaccine.  Which is not to say that the overwhelming medical community says the opposite, which is why we did end up getting both ourselves and our kids vaccinated.  Just saying that whether you think they're nutjobs or not, other beliefs are out there.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I guess that's my biggest issue. I can't wrap my head around how people aren't there yet. This blows, I hate living like this.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

My one an only comment on this as follows:

 

I am dead set against government mandates. I also firmly believe you should get the vaccine. 

 

If the government believes they should step in. Fine. Then make a law and run it through the law making system and let elected official decide on it. That's the way a republic is supposed to work.

[You Play to Win the Game]

My one an only comment on this as follows:

I am dead set against mandates. I also firmly believe you should get the vaccine.

If the government believes they should step in. Fine. Then make a law and run it through Congress and let our elected representatives decide. That is the way this republic is supposed to work.

My work mandated it. They also mandate that I attend meetings, conduct myself professionally (can you guys imagine?) And more.

What's the difference? Why shouldn't workplaces be allowed to enforce a safe work place?