494 replies to this topic

[You Play to Win the Game]

And I don't think Paterno will go back to being idolized... at least not by anyone who isn't apart of that cult up there. They never stopped idolizing him anyway.

[DJ MC]

And I don't think Paterno will go back to being idolized... at least not by anyone who isn't apart of that cult up there. They never stopped idolizing him anyway.

 

Right. Paterno is the public face of the scandal, and will remain so forever even if emotions fade over time.

 

As for the punishments, both the original handing-down and the eventual rolling-back show the weakness of the NCAA. Other than the 111 games for Paterno, there wasn't a single thing done that could affect those who were in any true way involved in the scandal, and all the scholarships and bowl bans and fines did was affect current and future athletes and students at the school. Then, they couldn't even hold on to that, as Penn State must have had a real case for this kind of settlement to occur.

 

People are going to focus on this as a reward for the "blind loyal" students and alumni of Penn State, as well as the Paterno family. But doing so ignores the entire reason there was an opportunity to give everything up in the first place, let alone for such a scandal to happen.

[RShack]

The BS about the sanctions is due to the NCAA trying to be a substitute for the justice system. IMO, any time you have a sports org in the role of substituting for the justice system, the results are almost guaranteed to be BS. The only kind of thing that sports org's should be the justice system about is sports rules, not all the other kinds of things that society deems to be crimes, those are what courts and jails are for. Of the several things that are screwed up about this, the main one is that both the justice system and the academic system failed to even acknowledge the crimes, much less deal with them. Paterno was one cog (a big cog, but just a cog) in the academic system.

 

To me, there are two different tragedies here... the main one about the kids, but there is also a tragedy here about Paterno. While all the stuff about the kids is the main concern, I think it's also true that Paterno was, in all other ways, truly the kind of guy you want as model of a college football coach. In terms of his failures-plural regarding this whole mess, I think he was handicapped by the mindset that was normal for people of his generation.

 

I don't mean to conflate being a pedophile with being gay, because those 2 things are more different than are apples vs oranges. The only way they're the similar is that people of Paterno's generation didn't know anything about either one of them, didn't appreciate the differences, and had no way to even think about either one of them. My bride's late father's late brother was gay. Everybody knew it, but nobody acknowledged it except by a wink and an eyeroll. It mainly made everybody uncomfortable. For a generation that couldn't find a way to cope with people being gay (which they found creepy, but which didn't hurt anybody), I bet they didn't even have a category for pedophiles. I bet most people of that generation didn't even know that something like pedophilia even existed. Furthermore, any time they were presented with something that might hint at it, they'd just turn away and quickly change the subject in their own mind... not just because it was unpleasant for them to think about, but because they didn't even have any way to think about it.

 

Now, you'd expect Paterno to have been more worldly than most people of his generation. But I don't know if he was. Yes, he was on TV and famous, but he also lived in a small-ish college town in the middle of nowhere. I'm in no way excusing what he did (didn't) do, nor am I saying that his generational mindset lets him off the hook. I think he bears 100% responsbility for his failures plural about this thing, and if he hadn't died he should have been put on trial. But it gets a lot more complicated when it comes to judging the quality of his personhood rather than just his behavior. I continue to think that he was mostly exemplary, both as a coach and as a person... but his ability to know how to deal with this whole thing was handicapped by how his generation as a whole dealt with these things. They didn't. Just like he didn't. So, while it's true that his behavior (or lack of it) had the effect of putting more kids at risk, I bet he didn't know that. I bet he couldn't even let the idea stay in his mind long enough for him to realize the consequences. If he had realized the consequences for kids, I believe he would have put a stop to it, one way or another. The problem was that he couldn't even let himself know.

 

So, bottom line: I think Paterno was largely exemplary as both a coach and a person, but he was out of his depth on this one... and the results were sad and tragic, both for the kids (which is the main thing) but also for Paterno himself and for all the exemplary things about him most folks will no longer appreciate him for. It was his own doing, nobody else made him fail, but that doesn't mean he was a bad guy... I think it means he was a good guy who failed miserably at something that was very important.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Interesting thoughts and perspective Shack. I just can't get behind remotely justifying it as a generational thing. How any generation, from cave men to millenials can know a grown ass man is doing things like that to a kid, and not immediately process that the behavior is, at a minimum, completely unacceptable, even if not totally understood, is beyond me. Isn't it human nature to try and protect a child from harm?

[RShack]

Interesting thoughts and perspective Shack. I just can't get behind remotely justifying it as a generational thing. How any generation, from cave men to millenials can know a grown ass man is doing things like that to a kid, and not immediately process that the behavior is, at a minimum, completely unacceptable, even if not totally understood, is beyond me. Isn't it human nature to try and protect a child from harm?

 

I didn't justify it.  I said he should've been put on trial if he hadn't croaked first.

 

However, I was distinguishing between behavior and personal character.  Crimes are about behavior.  I think the big discrepancy between the man's character and behavior is what makes the Paterno part of it a tragedy.  (Just the behavior part, leaving character completely out of it, is what makes for the main tragedy, which is what happened to the kids.)

 

I agree it's human nature to do what's necessary to protect children from harm.  That's a big part of why I don't think he even knew how to think about it, because if he had, he would've stopped it.  And not even being able to think about it is an aspect of his generation (and older).  They didn't even have the concept of pedophilia in their brain.  Rather, it was just part of a hazy. murky category of "Various creepy things that supposedly exist, but we've never seen them and certainly don't acknowledge them, they're all just ugly rumors from someplace else, not from here."

 

It seems to me that either you think he was a good person (as demonstrated by everything else about his life) who failed miserably at this thing... or else you think he was some kind of immoral monster who essentially said to himself, "Self, I know little kids are getting raped... but that's fine with me, I'll be sure to let it continue, just so the football program doesn't get nailed for it."    Now, do you really believe it was the latter?  I don't.

 

BTW, once it all came out, I think he suddenly did realize.  I think that's what killed him.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Oh yea, this terrible argument again.

People from Paterno's generation couldn't appreciate the differences and how to deal with child rapists versus gay people. Just some of the craziest stuff you'll ever read.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I think he was mostly a good person who when faced with a difficult matter, cowered under the pressure of his program temporarily taking a hit in perception for having a pedophile on his staff in an important capacity and during a championship season.

And justify wasn't the right word. You were just attempting to explain a generational issue. My apologies.

[Pedro Cerrano]

I think he was mostly a good person who when faced with a difficult matter, cowered under the pressure of his program temporarily taking a hit in perception for having a pedophile on his staff in an important capacity and during a championship season. And justify wasn't the right word. You were just attempting to explain a generational issue. My apologies.

This sounds about right.

[RShack]

I think he was mostly a good person who when faced with a difficult matter, cowered under the pressure of his program temporarily taking a hit in perception for having a pedophile on his staff in an important capacity and during a championship season.

And justify wasn't the right word. You were just attempting to explain a generational issue. My apologies.

 

Well, can we agree that what matters in the real world is his actual behavior... and that whatever we each might think about his character is based on our speculation about what happened in his internal subjective movie? And that speculation about unknowable things is insufficient grounds for conviction, that we're only able to judge him and convict him about his behavior?

 

Can we also agree that his behavior about everything else was exemplary, and that this one tragic story is his only known big failing?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Shack I get what you're saying... but when I think about how many more children were molested AFTER Paterno decided not to blow the whistle, I can't bring myself to say, well, he made one huge big ass mistake, but was otherwise perfect. That is one decision that continued to harm innocent children for years to come.

Then there's the very notion that he was perfect other than that anyway. How do we know that? It took decades to learn about this infraction. How can you assume there weren't others?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Well, can we agree that what matters in the real world is his actual behavior... and that whatever we each might think about his character is based on our speculation about what happened in his internal subjective movie? And that speculation about unknowable things is insufficient grounds for conviction, that we're only able to judge him and convict him about his behavior?
 
Can we also agree that his behavior about everything else was exemplary, and that this one tragic story is his only known big failing?

This is actually wrong. "Unknowable" things like motive and state of mind play a large role in guilt or innocence all the time.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Btw Shack. You're from JoePa's generation, right? You seem to have a pretty solid grasp on the difference between being gay and being a child rapist. Are you just the exception to the rule?

[RShack]

Shack I get what you're saying... but when I think about how many more children were molested AFTER Paterno decided not to blow the whistle, I can't bring myself to say, well, he made one huge big ass mistake, but was otherwise perfect. That is one decision that continued to harm innocent children for years to come.

Then there's the very notion that he was perfect other than that anyway. How do we know that? It took decades to learn about this infraction. How can you assume there weren't others?

 

Well, see, this is part of why I don't buy the "pressure during a championship season" story... because he let that scumbag have a key to the showers for years after he wasn't even part of the football program anymore, and during seasons when they were not in hunt for a championship.   So, the championship season explanation isn't sufficient.   The point here is that, not only did he do nothing about the fact that child rape had happened (past tense) but that his behavior permitted it to continue into the future.  So, his behavior actually encouraged the future rape of children.  

 

Do you believe he knew that was true and said to himself, "Self, I know I'm allowing kids to be raped in an ongoing way... but I don't care, that's fine... because I care more about future trophies than I care about permitting future child-rapes."  Is that what you think?

[You Play to Win the Game]

Shack I get what you're saying... but when I think about how many more children were molested AFTER Paterno decided not to blow the whistle, I can't bring myself to say, well, he made one huge big ass mistake, but was otherwise perfect. That is one decision that continued to harm innocent children for years to come.


Then there's the very notion that he was perfect other than that anyway. How do we know that? It took decades to learn about this infraction. How can you assume there weren't others?

 
Well, see, this is part of why I don't buy the "pressure during a championship season" story... because he let that scumbag have a key to the showers for years after he wasn't even part of the football program anymore, and during seasons when they were not in hunt for a championship.   So, the championship season explanation isn't sufficient.   The point here is that, not only did he do nothing about the fact that child rape had happened (past tense) but that his behavior permitted it to continue into the future.  So, his behavior actually encouraged the future rape of children.  
 
Do you believe he knew that was true and said to himself, "Self, I know I'm allowing kids to be raped in an ongoing way... but I don't care because I care more about future trophies than I care about permitting future child-rapes."  Is that what you think?

Yes. There is no other explanation. None. This is 100% true.

[RShack]

Btw Shack. You're from JoePa's generation, right? You seem to have a pretty solid grasp on the difference between being gay and being a child rapist. Are you just the exception to the rule?

 

I'm not even close to his generation... he was at least one generation older than me (~ my Mom's age).  Sometimes (and I don't know why) they seem to consider generations in 15-year chunks, in which case he was almost 2 generations older...

 

Not all generation breaks are the same... the diff between the mindset of my generation and my parents' generation was a lot bigger than most... Marshall McLuhan wrote books about it...

[Pedro Cerrano]

Well, see, this is part of why I don't buy the "pressure during a championship season" story... because he let that scumbag have a key to the showers for years after he wasn't even part of the football program anymore, and during seasons when they were not in hunt for a championship.   So, the championship season explanation isn't sufficient.   The point here is that, not only did he do nothing about the fact that child rape had happened (past tense) but that his behavior permitted it to continue into the future.  So, his behavior actually encouraged the future rape of children.  
 
Do you believe he knew that was true and said to himself, "Self, I know I'm allowing kids to be raped in an ongoing way... but I don't care, that's fine... because I care more about future trophies than I care about permitting future child-rapes."  Is that what you think?

When the alternative explanation is "his generation didn't know how to handle child rapists" then, sadly, yes.

[RShack]

Yes. There is no other explanation. None. This is 100% true.

 

2 things:

 

1.  I think you're flat-out wrong... (but I'm not mad at you about it  )

 

2.  How do you do the nested-quotes thing?

[Pedro Cerrano]

Well I should say that he probably wasn't saying "that's fine" but I think he put the program ahead of fixing everything that was going on behind the scenes.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Yes. There is no other explanation. None. This is 100% true.

 
2 things:
 
1.  I think you're flat-out wrong... (but I'm not mad at you about it  )
 
2.  How do you do the nested-quotes thing?

That's a tapatalk thing. And while I may be wrong, the only thing that matters is his negligence DID lead to more rapes. So I just can't possibly be understanding of it based on a generational thing.

[RShack]

Also... and not to put too fine a point on it... but all the major religions (which are all good, it's how people twist them and what people otherwise do with them that sucks) disagree with you... they all issue the strongest possible warnings against pretending you know enough to judge a person... because behavior is one thing and personhood is something quite different... judging behavior is fine and appropriate, but judging what the truth is inside of people is dangerous...

 

As for the idea that his exemplary behavior in other matters might be phony, on the grounds, that he might have done all kinds of other terrible things that we don't know about, I have just one question:  Have you stopped beating your wife?  (or gf...or pets... or whoever/whatever)

 

BTW, I think we lost something because he died... because if he had lived, and gone on trial and been convicted... and if he managed to weather all that... I bet he would have done an outstanding job of becoming a teacher to society in general about self-deception... he would have figured out what the internal process was by which he didn't realize what he should've known... and he would've been great at teaching leaders of sports teams and corporations and political types and everydamnbody about how to not fool yourself into thinking you're doing fine when in reality you're doing something terrible... which is one big thing that society seems to be getting worse at...