411 replies to this topic

[Pedro Cerrano]

So every hittable pitch he got late in his career was an automatic home run? Do you realize how silly that sounds? Especially when you consider the fact that, 2001 aside, he never hit more than 50 HR in a season?

[SBTarheel]

I saw a couple years ago someone basically mentioned Andre Dawson as one without naming Andre Dawson. "Outfielder from the 80s who had biggest HR year and MVP later on his career" or something like that.

Interesting. Wouldn't have suspected him at all. but I'm biased as I LOVED him  (Cubs fan also). That MVP year was his first year in Wrigley which obviously is more hitter friendly than Montreal. 

[Pedro Cerrano]

Look I'm not debating that steroids helped him. But nobody knows the extent. At all. And nobody knows how many people he was playing with were also using. And nobody knows how much more steroids helped him than greenies helped other players from previous generations.

Nobody knows.

[Mike in STL]

My Ballot, in order

 

Griffey

Bonds

Clemens

Bagwell

Piazza

Mussina

Schilling

Raines

L.Smith

Hoffman

[mweb08]

I'm a fan of Russo's knowledge, the guy REALLY knows his shit. I like the schtick, the yelling, the passion etc..

 

He and I share a birthday as well. Total plus!

 

But yeah, he's wrong on this issue for sure. 

 

He's been pretty awful when I've heard him.

[Mike B]

The Bonds debate is pretty interesting stuff.  I just wish the HOF and baseball would make a statement and take the debate out of the hands of the voters who all have different criteria.

Bonds, Clemens (both of who I dislike), Rose,  Jackson, Palmeiro, Sosa and others all have the #'s and for one reason (Steroids or Gambling) are not in.  If they are not welcome, then make that statement and move on.  If they are welcome then say so and let the numbers speak for themselves.

[mweb08]

Steroids were around and prevalent much earlier than a lot of these voters want to admit as they'd rather live in some fantasy land so they can remain holier than thou.

 

I can't hate the evoking of the morality clause in reference to steroids either. The voters as a collective body didn't give a crap about that clause until these guys appeared on the ballot. There is not much justification for keeping these guys out based on that clause but being good with greenie users, guys who doctored balls (often joked about), etc. That's without even getting into steroids being prevalent back to the 60's.

 

So it's not about cheating, not about that one bit, it's about how effective one is at cheating.

 

While we don't know how much the drugs helped Bonds for instance, it's pretty safe to say that they were effective. So people distinguish between cheating just based on the perceived effects, which is absurd if we're talking about the morality clause.

 

BTW, Chipper Jones said greenies had a bigger impact on performance than steroids.

[RShack]

They're not identical nor the same scale, but they are either both cheating or they are both not.

 

Yeah, and going 65mph on the Beltway is speeding, and so is going 110mph... so they're both OK or they're both not OK... 

[SBTarheel]

He's been pretty awful when I've heard him.

He is definitely an acquired taste...

 

When "Mike & the Mad Dog" was the only option, you get used to him. For years, it was the only sports radio I had. 

 

When I worked for Stan the Fan, I always tried to act a little goofy when on the air, a la Mad Dog. Without the totally crazy voice. 

[mweb08]

He is definitely an acquired taste...

 

When "Mike & the Mad Dog" was the only option, you get used to him. For years, it was the only sports radio I had. 

 

When I worked for Stan the Fan, I always tried to act a little goofy when on the air, a la Mad Dog. Without the totally crazy voice. 

 

His opinions from what I've heard, are the old school crap I can't stand from people talking baseball. He's definitely passionate about the game, though.

[mweb08]

From that Stark article: http://espn.go.com/m...all-fame-ballot

 

It's Barry Bonds' fourth year on the ballot. It's Roger Clemens' fourth year on the ballot. The greatness of their careers needs no explanation. The reason they've never even gotten 40 percent of the votes in any Hall of Fame election also needs no explanation.

So rather than debate their Cooperstown credentials, let's debate this instead: What kind of Hall of Fame do we want this to be?

 

If it's a place that's going to accurately reflect the history of baseball, how can it not include the man who made more home run trots than anyone who ever played and the pitcher who won more Cy Youngs than anyone who ever threw a pitch? That's the Hall of Fame I want to exist.

If you're one of those people who wants this to be a Hall of Purity, I respect why you think that. Just recognize that means it's time to start pulling plaques off the wall and throwing people out. Immediately. The ball scuffers. The bat corkers. The racists. The amphetamine poppers. The guys we've undoubtedly already elected who used some sort of PED.

You think it would be awkward to attend Bonds' and Clemens' induction day? It wouldn't be anywhere near as awkward as the day we started ripping plaques out of the gallery. I know what Hall of Fame I'd like to see. I know what kind of Hall of Fame voter I'd like to be. I just hope I live to see the day when one of those visions actually turns real.

[SBTarheel]

His opinions from what I've heard, are the old school crap I can't stand from people talking baseball. He's definitely passionate about the game, though.

Very true. 

[mweb08]

I recall Russo in previous HOF debates on MLBN saying something to the effect of when you picture a player or say his name, is he a no doubt about it Hall of Famer.

 

That's not awful if that's where you start off and then you really do analysis, but that was his primary argument from what I recall to not support certain players, guys that are well above the established level to reach the Hall. 

[Mike in STL]

From that Stark article: http://espn.go.com/m...all-fame-ballot

I've always said if Ty Cobb is in there, anyone should be in there.

[SBTarheel]

Word around Twitter is that Jr, Piazza, and Raines are in..

 

But again, it's Twitter

[Mike in STL]

I recall Russo in previous HOF debates on MLBN saying something to the effect of when you picture a player or say his name, is he a no doubt about it Hall of Famer.

 

That's not awful if that's where you start off and then you really do analysis, but that was his primary argument from what I recall to not support certain players, guys that are well above the established level to reach the Hall. 

Russo was just on MLBN. His ballot is Griffey, Edgar, Kent, Schilling. 

 

I get some of his feelings, that some guys don't strike you as HOFers. Trammell, Raines are two IMO that aren't, (though Raines is right there which is why given ten names i put him in my list). I mean, Gary Sheffield is better than Tim Raines and Sheff isn't a HOFer.

 

But then he's going to tell you Jeff Kent is a HOFer in his opinion? No. He's dumb. Jeff Kent is but Jeff Bagwell isn't? Cue the Sarcastic J-Law gif.

[Mackus]

Raines > Sheffield IMO

 

Both should be in, though

[SBTarheel]

Russo was just on MLBN. His ballot is Griffey, Edgar, Kent, Schilling. 

 

I get some of his feelings, that some guys don't strike you as HOFers. Trammell, Raines are two IMO that aren't, (though Raines is right there which is why given ten names i put him in my list). I mean, Gary Sheffield is better than Tim Raines and Sheff isn't a HOFer.

 

But then he's going to tell you Jeff Kent is a HOFer in his opinion? No. He's dumb. Jeff Kent is but Jeff Bagwell isn't? Cue the Sarcastic J-Law gif.

Russo is a life long Giants fan, for what it's worth, Re: Kent. 

[SportsGuy]

Its so naive of ANYONE to think there aren't steroid users in the HOF..guys from well before this recent steroid era.

 

And we know about greenies in the sport too.

 

Fucking absurd.  

[DJ MC]

I think the most important thing that could happen to the Hall of Fame is for one of Andre Dawson or Jim Rice to be outed as a steroid user. Not in a "I tried it but I didn't inhale" sense, and not necessarily in a Canseco-level unapologetic meathead sense, but just that they used it for a period of time and got real results from it.

 

Those two received large boosts to their candidacy in part due to the reaction by the writers against the "Steroid Era" and their attempt to recognize those who did it right. So for someone like that to end up in the Hall, with numbers inflated by using such substances, could bring about a two-fold change. First, some of the writers in that particular group may be so disgusted that they refuse to vote in the future. Second, others may well decide to rethink some of their opinions on the subject and become more open-minded about the evolution of baseball over its history and how we evaluate players compared to their peers and the past greats.

 

I wouldn't want to see that happen, and I honestly would be surprised (but not shocked) to hear that either was a user. I just think that in the long run, that kind of scandal could bring about a better future for the Hall.