465 replies to this topic

[Pedro Cerrano]

Lol

[bnickle]

Lol

Yup.

[mweb08]

This was the first comment.

 

Don't see how Mike is throwing a fit.  He stated an opinion.

 

Pedro had just as much of a "fit" about Bench.

 

I had just as much of a "fit" about Charleston not being on the Negro League top four.

[RShack]

You are the one who brought up everything that Koufax had to go through and how you think that should be factored into the discussion.

That's silly to me, at least in this context.

So, why is that we can use those excuses for Koufax but not Jackie?

 

What do you think I said about *how* Alston's anti-Semitism affected him and *why* Jackie Robinson argued with Alston about it?   Go read it again...

 

You bitch about how the O's handle Gausman and you can't grasp this?  It went on for 6 years...

[RShack]

The first post was clear.

 

 

That's not clear to you?

 

Well, that is indeed what you said... I just couldn't believe you would misuse stats that way... although, based on how you misused ERA+, maybe I should have known better...

 

So, you think it's a good thing to compare his home-game performance during his great years with his away-game performance for his entire career... why on earth would you do that?  Either you don't understand what you're talking about or else you're trying to be downright deceptive.  Which one is it?

 

And, like I already pointed out, you not only made a misleading post, you also inflated his career away-game ERA by half-a-run...

 

Now, given that you've misused stats twice, why should anybody trust you to make a stat-based argument?  Where in here have you *not* misused stats?   

 

Any number of people here can make your point without having to depend on doing a misleading job of it...

[mweb08]

The first post was clear.


That's not clear to you?

Well, that is indeed what you said... I just couldn't believe you would misuse stats that way... although, based on how you misused ERA+, maybe I should have known better...

So, you think it's a good thing to compare his home-game performance during his great years with his away-game performance for his entire career... why on earth would you do that? Either you don't understand what you're talking about or else you're trying to be downright deceptive. Which one is it?

And, like I already pointed out, you not only made a misleading post, you also inflated his career away-game ERA by half-a-run...

Now, given that you've misused stats twice, why should anybody trust you to make a stat-based argument? Where in here have you *not* misused stats?

Any number of people here can make your point without having to depend on doing a misleading job of it...

Hence why I posted an explanation about exactly what you're saying here and then said that the splits are still pronounced during his prime.

I also doesn't inflate anything. Try reading the stat one more time.

Now really I should be getting an apology.

[SportsGuy]

What do you think I said about *how* Alston's anti-Semitism affected him and *why* Jackie Robinson argued with Alston about it? Go read it again...

You bitch about how the O's handle Gausman and you can't grasp this? It went on for 6 years...

Probably pales into comparison to what Jackie went through.

But even getting past the specifics, my point is when do we consider those things and when dont we?

[RShack]

Well, the car packing is done... 

 

We used to jump in the van with just a spare t-shirt and a toothbrush each... now, to go someplace for a week, she's got 3 huge bags plus kitchen equipment... I kid you not, kitchen equipment... it'd be worse except for the fact that she keeps some of it there all the time... I'd be lost without her, and she puts up with me, but sometimes I just gotta wonder WTF is going on...

 

On the other hand, I now "need" all kinds of crap I didn't before... phone and charger, laptop and another charger... ecigs and yet another battery charger... plus a bunch of 18650's, some spare coils, and e-juice... and that means 2 bags for me... so, there is that... 

 

But all in all, just the 2 of us now take more crap with us than we took when there was a little baby involved...

[RShack]

Hence why I posted an explanation about exactly what you're saying here and then said that the splits are still pronounced during his prime.

I also doesn't inflate anything. Try reading the stat one more time.

Now really I should be getting an apology.

 

I don't mind when people make mistakes... everybody makes mistakes... Sandy Koufax made mistakes...

 

What bugs me is when people dig in and refuse to just admit it... 

 

So, instead of just saying, "Ooops, that was wrong... sorry about that... I was caught up in the argument and didn't think it through", you feel the need to do all this fake macho crap about how you really weren't wrong...  and then you want an apology...

 

Why do people here do that?  Is it testosterone poisoning?  As a general rule, women don't do that... but around here it's a semi-regular occurrence...

[SportsGuy]

Well, the car packing is done... 

 

We used to jump in the van with just a spare t-shirt and a toothbrush each... now, to go someplace for a week, she's got 3 huge bags plus kitchen equipment... I kid you not, kitchen equipment... it'd be worse except for the fact that she keeps some of it there all the time... I'd be lost without her, and she puts up with me, but sometimes I just gotta wonder WTF is going on...

 

On the other hand, I now "need" all kinds of crap I didn't before... phone and charger, laptop and another charger... ecigs and yet another battery charger... plus a bunch of 18650's, some spare coils, and e-juice... and that means 2 bags for me... so, there is that... 

 

But all in all, just the 2 of us now take more crap with us than we took when there was a little baby involved...

Did you remember to bring her?

 

Or better yet, did she decide that not riding in the car with you all that time the better decision to make? 

[mweb08]

Hence why I posted an explanation about exactly what you're saying here and then said that the splits are still pronounced during his prime.


I also doesn't inflate anything. Try reading the stat one more time.


Now really I should be getting an apology.

I don't mind when people make mistakes... everybody makes mistakes... Sandy Koufax made mistakes...

What bugs me is when people dig in and refuse to just admit it...

So, instead of just saying, "Ooops, that was wrong... sorry about that... I was caught up in the argument and didn't think it through", you feel the need to do all this fake macho crap about how you really weren't wrong... and then you want an apology...

Why do people here do that? Is it testosterone poisoning? As a general rule, women don't do that... but around here it's a semi-regular occurrence...

Ask that question to yourself.

As I said, I was reading a Posnanski article that included that stat so I posted it here. I included the caveats that it included numbers from before his prime and at his former home park, which was a hitter's park as you've mentioned. I also said that if you just look at his splits during his prime, they're still pronounced.

So how the hell is your response to that warranted? Yes, you better believe I want and deserve an apology for your unwarranted, over the top attack.

[RShack]

So how the hell is your response to that warranted? 

 

If you made any posts in this discussion citing stats re: Koufax that was not either flat out wrong or else misleading to the casual reader who stop to to think it through, didn't study every word and then fact-check you about it, I don't recall them...

[mweb08]

So how the hell is your response to that warranted? 

 
If you made any posts in this discussion citing stats re: Koufax that was not either flat out wrong or else misleading to the casual reader who stop to to think it through, didn't study every word and then fact-check you about it, I don't recall them...

I stand behind everything I've posted. Nothing needed to be fact checked, the stats were correct. The Koufax Dodger Stadium and everywhere else stats are very useful with just reading short caveats. Would just posting the stats in his prime be better? Absolutely. Hence the caveats. However, I was on my phone and that would have been difficult and those prime stats still strongly back up my point.

Your response was completely uncalled for. I really thought you were better than that, but I guess I should side with Rob, Mackus, and Pedro now because that's how absurd and disrespectful your post was. This has nothing to do with machismo, I just won't tolerate such bullshit.

[BobPhelan]

Hilarious argument just because someone used the word 'overrated'. I think the Lord of the Rings movies are overrated but they're still great well made films. Overrated isn't always a slight. It's also just an opinion...

And Mike, don't let him convince you to give up your stat user card. How would we ever be able to take you seriously again...

[mweb08]

Hilarious argument just because someone used the word 'overrated'. I think the Lord of the Rings movies are overrated but they're still great well made films. Overrated isn't always a slight. It's also just an opinion...


And Mike, don't let him convince you to give up your stat user card. How would we ever be able to take you seriously again...

Clearly I don't know what I'm doing. I guess the post just using ERA was awful too.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Koufax probably isn't the greatest living pitcher, since his career was so short, but his peak was so high that he probably belongs in the conversation.  But if one pitcher was going to be honored at the All-Star game, he was absolutely the right guy.  The whole point of things like that is to see older players one more time before it's too late.  Also, mystique counts a ton in any kind of greatest living competition, and Koufax leads every other pitcher in that (except maybe for Gibson).

 

It was really jarring for me to see Aaron using a cane, and for Mays to need someone holding his elbow.  Those guys are getting old, and Koufax isn't much younger.  Pedro. Maddux. and Clemens will be around for another 40 years - they'll have their chance (but the mantle will probably pass to Seaver or Gibson next).

 

Anyway, I think Bench was by far the least deserving guy out there, even if he's probably the greatest living catcher.  If they had to pick a Red, I'd have been happier with Joe Morgan, or even Frank.

[Cisc-O's]

Koufax probably isn't the greatest living pitcher, since his career was so short, but his peak was so high that he probably belongs in the conversation.  But if one pitcher was going to be honored at the All-Star game, he was absolutely the right guy.  The whole point of things like that is to see older players one more time before it's too late.  Also, mystique counts a ton in any kind of greatest living competition, and Koufax leads every other pitcher in that (except maybe for Gibson).

 

It was really jarring for me to see Aaron using a cane, and for Mays to need someone holding his elbow.  Those guys are getting old, and Koufax isn't much younger.  Pedro. Maddux. and Clemens will be around for another 40 years - they'll have their chance (but the mantle will probably pass to Seaver or Gibson next).

 

Anyway, I think Bench was by far the least deserving guy out there, even if he's probably the greatest living catcher.  If they had to pick a Red, I'd have been happier with Joe Morgan, or even Frank.

Yogi is still alive and kicking but they wanted it to be a Red.

[Cisc-O's]

Weber did you mention Bill James?

 

 

According to the win shares formula developed by sabermetrician Bill James, Berra is the greatest catcher of all time and the 52nd greatest non-pitching player in major-league history.

 

Not to mention 3 times AL MVP second twice and third once, received votes for all 15 years he played.  His batting numbers are all superior to to Bench's. Depending what site you look at his defense can be close to not close. 

[mweb08]

James has Berra very slightly above Bench.

Bench was the better defender and the better hitter in his prime, but Yogi had the better longevity.

[mweb08]

James also ranks Bench ahead of Koufax (44 and 51 as of around 2000).

He would have gone with Morgan as his Reds representative, as he had him 15th.