465 replies to this topic

[bnickle]

I've heard enough of Bill James name for one weekend. Nobody gives a crap where he ranks them.

[mweb08]

I've heard enough of Bill James name for one weekend. Nobody gives a crap where he ranks them.

But he's older than Shack.

[RShack]

Koufax probably isn't the greatest living pitcher, since his career was so short, but his peak was so high that he probably belongs in the conversation.  But if one pitcher was going to be honored at the All-Star game, he was absolutely the right guy.  The whole point of things like that is to see older players one more time before it's too late.  Also, mystique counts a ton in any kind of greatest living competition, and Koufax leads every other pitcher in that (except maybe for Gibson).

 

Gibson's mystique is mainly about 2 things:  that one bizarrely good season when he pitched like he was a Klingon, and his aura of being an angry guy who would stick a fastball in your ear if you looked at him wrong.   Koufax was the gentleman who had both a fastball and a curve that were just plain better than everybody else's.  

 

Plus, Koufax was great while playing with serious injury most of the time he was great... not injuries from falling apart, but injuries from having his body damaged during ballgames.  Other guys have serious injuries and their performance falls.  If his performance suffered in the same way from being seriously injured that other people's performance does, then it's difficult to comprehend how good he would have been if he hadn't been hurt while he was busy being great.

 

No way to know if he would have been even better if he wasn't seriously injured... but there is no doubt that he managed to perform at exalted levels regardless of pitching with serious injuries during most of his great era.  How he could possibly do that, well, beats me... but he did.

[RShack]

Anyway, I think Bench was by far the least deserving guy out there, even if he's probably the greatest living catcher.  If they had to pick a Red, I'd have been happier with Joe Morgan, or even Frank.

 

The main problem (not sure "problem" is the best word here) with that is that those guys were Reds for only a minority of their careers

 

Frank was there for 10 of 21 years...

Morgan was there for only 8 of 22 years.  

Morgan's most fame-earning years were there, but Frank's happened as an Oriole.

 

Meanwhile Bench was never anything other than a Cincinnati Red.  

Plus, he was pretty much the poster boy for the Big Red Machine...

'Not saying that should matter... but I bet it does anyway...

[mweb08]

I came across the home road splits for Koufax during his 5 year peak. Home: 1.37. Road: 2.57

League average ERA during that time was about 3.60.

[mweb08]

Since I just can't get enough of reading about Koufax, here is what Posnanski had to say about him on his blog where he was rating the top 100 players of all time: http://joeposnanski....6-sandy-koufax/

 

Sandy is ranked 46th.

 

Yogi is 45th, Pedro is 44th, Rose 41st, and Gibson 39th among notables. Bench has not yet been rated so it's safe to assume he is to come. Same with a bunch of other living players.