521 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

If the offense was addressed as it should have been in the offseason and was more productive overall, then we could have possibly acquired the SP help we ended up needing and remain a playoff contender rather than needing to acquire offensive help.  I think that's the best case, though.  Even if we had made a smart decision and somehow traded away Norris and Jimenez and acquired one more reliable SP, we'd still have Tillman and Gonzalez as disasters and Gausman as not that much better (I'm confident in him moving forward, but results this year have been disappointing, maybe it'd be better if he wasn't jerked around like he was).

[Mike in STL]

I typed up a long post about this, but I deleted it. I'm sick and damn tired of talking about why the Orioles suck. We all know why. We know what Buck's previous employers do or did to get better...that the Orioles don't ever do. 

[DJ MC]

I typed up a long post about this, but I deleted it. I'm sick and damn tired of talking about why the Orioles suck. We all know why. We know what Buck's previous employers do or did to get better...that the Orioles don't ever do. 

 

Apparently, fire Buck

[Markus]

It's just interesting. Buck's past has followed a similar script in NY, ARZ and TEX...and so far that script has played out similarly in Baltimore.

 

Not saying he's lost the team or this is his fault. Far from it. Just looking at this bad stretch of baseball and comparing it to those previous experiences.

 

Like I said, it could be grasping at straws...just trying to make sense of all this.

 

The difference is those other teams didn't have the Angelos' as owners.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I'd give Buck an extension right now. Just to eliminate all of this negativity. I haven't listened to The Fan in quite a while... I can only imagine the tenor on there of late (and the whole off-season). How soon we forget that just a few short years ago we couldn't get the stadium half full on a weekend.

[glenn__davis]

I typed up a long post about this, but I deleted it. I'm sick and damn tired of talking about why the Orioles suck. We all know why. We know what Buck's previous employers do or did to get better...that the Orioles don't ever do. 

 

You're sick and tired of it after 2 weeks?  

[glenn__davis]

For the record - I appreciate that Chris wants things organized on the board a certain way.  But I didn't make a thread title "Talking Buck" in an effort to examine Buck's pros and cons as a manager.  My comment was a reply to the "Playoff Hunt" thread, and was meant to just be a comment on how surprised I am that the team is playing this poorly.  

 

I am 100% pro Buck and place little blame on him for the past 2 weeks of suckitude.

[Mike in STL]

Apparently, fire Buck

Sarcasm? Is that what that emoticon means?

[Mike in STL]

You're sick and tired of it after 2 weeks?  

They have sucked for more than two weeks...with about two or three sporadic off weeks where they win more than they lose. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

I know you aren't on any "Buck is the problem" bandwagon, GD. I'm just livid because if reasonable, rational people on here are starting to ask the questions, I can't imagine what the masses are going to start saying here soon. Just preparing myself mentally for the stupidity.

[glenn__davis]

They have sucked for more than two weeks...with about two or three sporadic off weeks where they win more than they lose. 

 

2 weeks ago they were 62-57, and I believe 1.5 games out of the playoffs.  That's not a team that sucks.  It may not have been as good as we thought they should be, but that's on pace for 84-85 wins.  Parsing out the good weeks doesn't work any more than parsing out the bad weeks does.

 

They've sucked for 2 weeks.  

[tennOsfan]

Criticizing Buck Showalter's overall job performance is the height of stupidity.

[fishteacher]

Criticizing Buck Showalter's overall job performance is the height of stupidity.

I agree.  I will live and die with Buck before any player on this team, including Manny and Jones.  

[Mike in STL]

They have sucked for more than two weeks...with about two or three sporadic off weeks where they win more than they lose. 

 
2 weeks ago they were 62-57, and I believe 1.5 games out of the playoffs.  That's not a team that sucks.  It may not have been as good as we thought they should be, but that's on pace for 84-85 wins.  Parsing out the good weeks doesn't work any more than parsing out the bad weeks does.
 
They've sucked for 2 weeks.  

They went from April 22 to June 13 without getting over .500. A streaky couple weeks of winning got them though the wall. Then for the better part of July they hovered around .500 a few games under, then over, than under. Some more streaky wins. And now they are back to well under .500

Safe to say under .500 more than over through the season, which sucks.

Now we're at the part where Davis will rake for a couple weeks, the O's will make it interesting, just to have another awful cold streak just in time for the final two weeks.

[dude]

The reason they are losing is because the talent on the field is not playoff-adequate.

 

The reason they're losing is because they aren't playing like a playoff team.

 

We agree they don't have enough talent, but it's not because there's some big talent difference between this year and last year.  They won 96 games last year and ran away with the Division largely without MM, CD and MW.  Last year the pitching got it done (same pitchers), this year they aren't.

 

In 2012 they set a ML record for 1-run (27-9) and X-inning games (16-2)....this year they suck (18-24).  If they were 32-10 in 1-run games this year we'd have a 4-6 game lead on the BlueJays.

 

If you had to put everything you owned on 1 team to make the playoffs this year....who wouldn't have put it on the Nats?  They were an easy runaway winner in the Division and no-one could hang with their pitching in the playoffs.  They were certainly the easier end of a Beltway Series....and both teams will be watching the playoffs from home.

 

[break from quote above]

 

I'd make the same points I always make.

 

1) Talent is important.  It builds margin against error.  You are going to fail and it's all about how often you can overcome the inherent challenges that dominate this sport forever.  Talent helps you overcome them more consistently.

 

2) You have to play well.  Talent alone doesn't get you there.  We've seen a lot of well designed teams fail for different reasons.  Most teams have some opportunity and it's all about how often you can get it done.  It's competition....the other team is trying to win with the same things you are.

 

3) Results vary.  You are what you are at the end of a season, but it wasn't the only possible result.  Last year wasn't a 96 win team.  It was an 83 win team that won 96 games.  This year, we're an 83 win team that will probably win less than 83 games.

 

So you do as much as you can with (1) and you work hard at (2) and you try to make (3) break your way.

 

4) Buck doesn't have a magic wand.  He's not 'worth 10 games' or whatever....because if that was somehow a repeatable skill, we wouldn't see this.

 

I'm a big fan of Buck, this isn't on him at all and anyone that wants to head there is ridiculous.  I think he deserves a lot of the accolades that he gets, but you can't just hang success around the neck of the manager and pretend he's the only answer you need.  It's a bunch of things that need to happen and the manager is one of them.  If Buck was the Mariners manager, Jack Z would probably still have a job.

 

Success in recent years isn't any more a function of MacPhail ('rebuilding') than the failures of this season are.  The Orioles have played some 1-3% seasons in recent years (lot of credit to Buck, not rebuilding) and that's awesome (and fun), but to believe you live at that end of the probability curve is a recipe for disappointment.

 

The Orioles should be the Cardinals of the AL....and they can't get out of their own way.

[RShack]

4) Buck doesn't have a magic wand.  He's not 'worth 10 games' or whatever....because if that was somehow a repeatable skill, we wouldn't see this.

 

That assertion doesn't make any sense... what a team does in any 1 year doesn't demonstrate anything about that...

 

And while that's true for anybody, it's even more true for managers... because their impact is 2nd-order... the manager doesn't swing or pitch or run or throw... he just puts people in place to do those things...

[Russ]

Angelos has enough MASN money to get Buck a magic wand. We're not a small market club.

[Matt_P]

Angelos has enough MASN money to get Buck a magic wand. We're not a small market club.

 

MLB consider the Orioles to be in the 20th largest market. Technically, that means the Os aren't a small market club because teams in markets ranked 21-30 are small markets. But for all intents and purposes, they are. The Cardinals are a small market club (#26).

[Dr. FLK]

The plan to improve the offense this offseason was to let good talent walk, replace it with blind hope, and pray that you get more production from the guys you have.  Well, we got more production from some of the guys we kept.  But, the "blind hope" part totally failed.  What we got left with is an offense that, on paper, has similar numbers in terms of runs scored and HR.  But the lineup has no depth.  And, if Davis/Manny/Jones/Schop aren't hot, you know the other 5 guys won't pick up the slack.

 

The pitching got markedly worse, even with Chen having a solid year.  We bet on mediocre guys outperforming common sense again, and it backfired.

 

At this point in the year, I wouldn't say they are tanking.  The roster just sucks.  The team is doing what it's current makeup says it should do.  The team has no real DH, LF, SS, or bench bats.  Matty W is just awful at the plate.  Aside from Manny/Schoop/Parra, you can't expect a "good AB" out of anyone.  It's just a bad team.  Bad teams lose games.

[Mike in STL]

Was there anything to suggest the pitching would regress so badly after last year?

I mean, it seems like the Orioles and those that support this past offseason dont have any answers for the pitching but all the answers for the hitting aspect.

Why did they do nothing to get better if they were an 83 win team that got lucky and over achieved?