Moderator
Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:00 PM
When will we know about GMGM and Oates? GMGM will have to resign like now if he isn't extended so he can take one of the other gigs, no?
Also, VERY interesting to hear Laich say today that the closest the Caps got to a Cup was under Hunter. That was a shot at Oates if I've ever heard one.
Moderator
Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:06 PM
I don't think wanting to fire GMGM is such a reactionary move, it's been suggested multiple times in recent years and he is the common denominator over the years. You can definitely argue you shouldn't make a change just for the sake of change AND should only do it if you could get a better GM.
HOF
Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:16 PM
HOF
Posted 14 April 2014 - 02:23 PM
There really aren't many better GMs. And what can you point to specifically that is his fault? Besides the Erat trade and Vokoun signing (and that one was minimal risk).
I'd be with you if I saw stuff that was clearly his fault, but coaching decisions are mostly Ted, and trades and drafting aren't horribly bad, some good and bad but even the best will have that.
At what point would you say results matter? If he never got them past the second round, should he just keep his job in perpetuity?
And if you're saying the coaching decisions aren't his -- if Leonsis doesn't trust him to make those crucial decisions, shouldn't he hire someone he does trust to make those kind of decisions?
Moderator
Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:25 PM
At what point would you say results matter? If he never got them past the second round, should he just keep his job in perpetuity?
And if you're saying the coaching decisions aren't his -- if Leonsis doesn't trust him to make those crucial decisions, shouldn't he hire someone he does trust to make those kind of decisions?
If he weren't doing things to enable them to win I'd say it matters. I look at it all compartmentalized. I don't start firing people doing a good job because someone else (players or coaches) aren't getting it done. I just don't see any glaring reasons to fire him aside from just wanting a change. Change isn't always a good thing, and having to start over with a new blueprint wouldn't be a good one for this team. It's a couple tweaks away from a cup contender, not a rebuild candidate.
Not all owners want GMs to make coaching decisions, it depends on the kind of owner you are, Ted is hands on and will ALWAYS want the coaching input no matter how much he trusts the GM.
Moderator
Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:32 PM
Jeremy - which direction do you think they're leaning wrt GMGM and Oates?
Not sure. There's probably something to be said that Oates wasn't included in that meeting today though. They aren't going to make a rash judgement, but IMO it's pretty clear that Oates has a majority of the blame here, and showed he was unwilling to adapt or change.
Boudreaux at least knew he had to alter some things, and you see how that's done for him.
HOF
Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:37 PM
Not sure. There's probably something to be said that Oates wasn't included in that meeting today though. They aren't going to make a rash judgement, but IMO it's pretty clear that Oates has a majority of the blame here, and showed he was unwilling to adapt or change.
Boudreaux at least knew he had to alter some things, and you see how that's done for him.
Yeah... and for someone like Brooksie to come out and throw him under the bus today... I thought that was pretty telling too. Not like him to do that, really.
Moderator
Posted 14 April 2014 - 03:40 PM
Yeah... and for someone like Brooksie to come out and throw him under the bus today... I thought that was pretty telling too. Not like him to do that, really.
It was fairly subtle, but yeah, guys know that big picture his scheme isn't gonna get it done. "It's my job as coach to know all positions on the team" should tell you enough. He knows zilch about defense or goalie and doesn't care to know either. He's more one-dimensional than Ovi.
Dave
Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:40 PM
The thing I find interesting is just how blinded the Caps faithful are about Ovi. Talking to a few fans from other teams around the league, they don't even think the Caps would get much, if anything in return in a trade taking into account his salary. They also see a one dimensional player whose play consistently leads to great scoring chances for the other team.
Like I said last night, he's not going anywhere... so I'm letting this go... but those are my parting thoughts.
Ricker, if we all agreed on everything, this world would be quite boring. I agree that fans are blindly faithful to him. I'm faithful to him because this is the first year his +/- has been horrible. I'm not saying Ovechkin doesn't deserve blame (he does), but there are quite a few other factors at work. I wish I had NHL's equivalent of MLB TV so I could personally count how many times I saw Ovechkin moving up the ice for a pass while somebody else makes a stupid turnover and basically screws Ovechkin over.
I think ANY NHL general manager would love to have a 50 goal scorer on their roster. Does Ovechkin have his faults on defense? Yes. But until this year, when the rest of his teammates were crap on defense too, he's been able to overcome that with his offensive output. Surround him with better teammates (like every year before this season) and his defense is a lot less exposed.
Ovechkin has faults, but I still believe in him. I firmly believe that he can, and will, take the Capitals to a Stanley Cup. And good point about his salary. Just keep in mind that even Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux had years when their +/- ratings were horrible.
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
Dave
Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:42 PM
Jeremy - which direction do you think they're leaning wrt GMGM and Oates?
My gut feeling: GMGM is fired, Oates's fate is determined by the next GM (which means he's probably fired too).
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
Dave
Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:43 PM
Yeah... and for someone like Brooksie to come out and throw him under the bus today... I thought that was pretty telling too. Not like him to do that, really.
I was shocked as heck when Brooks did that. I literally can't remember another time when Brooks threw someone under the bus. That says something.
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
Dave
Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:45 PM
There really aren't many better GMs. And what can you point to specifically that is his fault? Besides the Erat trade and Vokoun signing (and that one was minimal risk).
I'd be with you if I saw stuff that was clearly his fault, but coaching decisions are mostly Ted, and trades and drafting aren't horribly bad, some good and bad but even the best will have that.
GMGM has had his chances. I do agree with you though- GMGM has been solid. It's just time for him to go. He's had 17 years. I will never forget how quickly he rebuilt the Capitals. He's done very good things in DC. I think he gets fired, but I hope it's because we're hiring someone better and that we're not going to fire him for the sake of firing him.
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
Dave
Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:51 PM
A potential name to watch if a coaching change is made: Barry Trotz.
He was the Caps minor league head coach before Poile took him to Nashville, and runs a solid defensive system. Not as stringent as Hunter, but one of the better defensive schemes in the league. Leans on having 2 offensive defensmen paired with defense first guys (Green, Carlson), Alzner...and uh...MAYBE Erskine (but he's better as a 3rd pairing guy).
His system doesn't discourage offense, it's just that they've never really had any GOOD offensive guys there. Arnott and Erat might be the best guys they've ever had, and we saw how sub par they were here. This is the problem with hockey, where not as many people REALLY follow it, so mediocre players that just happen to be the best on their team get overrated as good players. In MLB or NFL people would be able to break down the individual contributions, but in hockey general input just says oh, look these guys are these kinda players, although they will perform differently on different teams. IE Ovi is an elite power forward, but if you put him in a system where he's accountable to play a ton of defense, you are wasting his talent. (Players have dealt with this through the years, look at down years for guys like Hull, Tkachuck, Guerin). No one was going to put Brett Hull in a system where he had to play defense on every shift, you just put him out there with a guy that can give him the puck and hope that the C, other winger, and defensement can compensate for his poor defense.
Anyways, back to my point...Trotz runs a good middle of the pack scheme that could be a good fit for the players we have here. It'd probably take some tinkering in the bottom 6 forwards, and bottom 3 defensemen, but goaltending would improve dramatically, and you'd still see a good bit of top line offense. Laich being healthy would be HUGELY important in this scheme though, since he's our best defensive forward, and two way player. It also would hinge on finding a balance with a true checking line, a 2nd line center that can play both ways.
Not that I count this really highly yet, I feel like Ted won't be willing to give up on Oates just yet, even though so much of the problem is CLEARLY him. That should be the move, and if GMGM can't make the proper alterations to the team to make the new coach work, then his head should go on the block too, but right now, calling to trade Ovi, or fire GMGM are just reactionary moves when someone can't think of a clearer way to fix things.
Trotz is an intriguing option. I wonder what he could do with our forwards. Obviously he's a defensive mastermind, but the Predators never had a strong offense.
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
HOF
Posted 14 April 2014 - 11:13 PM
GMGM has had his chances. I do agree with you though- GMGM has been solid. It's just time for him to go. He's had 17 years. I will never forget how quickly he rebuilt the Capitals. He's done very good things in DC. I think he gets fired, but I hope it's because we're hiring someone better and that we're not going to fire him for the sake of firing him.
I pretty much agree with just about all of this, well said Dave.
All Star
Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:00 AM
Torts is a cancer and will be fired again in a few days.
I want no part of Torts. The last thing this team needs is a self-promoting buffoon in charge. I feel like everything about this guy is total schtick aimed at making him the center of attention. He's a total clown.
All Star
Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:01 AM
I was shocked as heck when Brooks did that. I literally can't remember another time when Brooks threw someone under the bus. That says something.
I wasn't shocked. Oates has been throwing his players under the bus a lot lately. I'm shocked it's taken this long for the guys to start firing back.
Moderator
Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:04 AM
I wasn't shocked. Oates has been throwing his players under the bus a lot lately. I'm shocked it's taken this long for the guys to start firing back.
A lot more people thank Brooksie have big issues with him too. Most of this stuff stays behind closed doors, but Oates started throwing stones, which was the last straw for a couple guys.
Ovi won't say anything because he got the rep for being a coach-killer with Boudreaux, but Brooks in a lot of ways is a spokesman for the team. It should speak volumes.
HOF
Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:16 AM
I know they were pissed at Oates for the way he threw Halak under the bus after the StL game.
Dave
Posted 15 April 2014 - 12:57 PM
I know they were pissed at Oates for the way he threw Halak under the bus after the StL game.
That was completely unacceptable, even if that's what Halak said. No reason Oates could not have just said "I feel that Braden Holtby gives us the best chance to win".
"We're not going to be f***ing suck this year" - Alex Ovechkin
@BaltimoreDavey
Moderator
Posted 15 April 2014 - 01:34 PM
That was completely unacceptable, even if that's what Halak said. No reason Oates could not have just said "I feel that Braden Holtby gives us the best chance to win".
Not to mention it was like a week after throwing Ovi under the bus, and I feel like there were a couple more early in the year. Players don't trust him at all.
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