40 replies to this topic

[RichardZ]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying let Jones dictate his contract, but you would have to factor that into any potential transaction if he got moved to a different position considering he might be more likely to leave if he can't play CF. I'm mixed on the trade or not trade Jones, and I won't debate that here except to say the following. But yes, you can get a sense of whether Jones wants to re-sign here. If you are too far apart numbers wise, there might be no other options.

So hypothetically, say that we trade for Bourjos and put him in CF, and that makes Jones more likely to leave, would that make you not pull the trigger on the Bourjos trade?

Not at all. That plays into just what we should be doing. Bourjos is cheap and will be around for the next 5 years. He's a better defender than Jones with a little less offense (unless you think Jones is taking his offense to another level and I don't). The O's should be looking to deal Jones before next season, for players like Bourjos, young and cheap.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Not at all. That plays into just what we should be doing. Bourjos is cheap and will be around for the next 5 years. He's a better defender than Jones with a little less offense (unless you think Jones is taking his offense to another level and I don't). The O's should be looking to deal Jones before next season, for players like Bourjos, young and cheap.

Right, this makes the already easy decision to trade Jones all the more a slam dunk, IMO. That's my point, his willingness to stay if he has to move to LF is completely irrelevant to the Orioles persective, IMHO.

I like some of the things that Duq has done, especially the organizational things (Petersen). But this whole situation with Jones is going to tell us a lot about what we can expect during the Duquette era.

[Greg Pappas]

Regarding Bourjos... I've said before that I wanted him a great deal, and while concerned about him at this juncture, I believe that if we can move some relievers to get him (very unlikely) then we should do it.

I'm confident that Jones would strongly balk at the idea of sliding over to LF, because it would hurt him somewhat as he approaches Free Agency. Jones has no choice but to play where we tell him to, but under this scenario, any thoughts of extending him would essentially be eliminated.

With that being said, we must extend Jones soon or deal him, and while I was confident that trading him was the better option, I'm not nearly as sold on dealing him as I was before. So, to be more clear, I think that Duquette needs to explore the trade market for Jones- from now through this coming trade deadline, and determine whether the best offer is worth taking over extending Jones. IF it is not, extend Jones and be happy to have a good quality ML CF'er for 5+ years to come.

I will say this... if we do trade Adam Jones, it had better be for a no-brainer package. WE CANNOT BLOW THIS.

[RichardZ]

Adam Jones is the same good, not great, player he was before. He's been very good at hitting homers so far this year but I don't think he's a 35-40 homer guy by any means. At the end of the year he'll be a .280-.290 hitter with 30 walks 100 K's, and around a .800 OPS, with average defense in CF.

[SportsGuy]

Jones is going to have a season or 2 where he has an OPS over 830..maybe even get to 900 one year. This may be a year he does that...but people shouldn't be fooled into thinking he is something he is not. If anything, his start has kept his trade value as high, if not higher, than it was in the offseason.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Let's keep this thread about Bourjous.

As far as the merits of trading or extending Jones, please use this thread: http://baltimorespor...ic.php?f=3&t=42 .

[BSLChrisStoner]

FanGraphs: The Bourjos Inquiries
http://www.fangraphs...urjos-inquires/

[mweb08]

An interesting "I was right" type of thread.

There's not really a good reason for bragging rights here since he wasn't very available during the off-season (when the debate happened), the Angels didn't and still don't need a #5 as their rotation has been and continues to be good on paper, they just need better production from Haren and Santana. Their offense, most notably Pujols need to step it up. And yes, they could use some BP help.

As far as some overrating him, I'm sure I'm one of the some being referred to, I think I explained myself pretty well before regarding not expecting him to be a star or anything, just a good player that has a significant service time advantage over Jones.

If he is available for a reasonable price, of course I'd go after him. He'd be a great replacement for Jones if he's traded and I would be good with them co-existing in the OF if Adam would be alright with moving to LF.

[Oriole85]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying let Jones dictate his contract, but you would have to factor that into any potential transaction if he got moved to a different position considering he might be more likely to leave if he can't play CF. I'm mixed on the trade or not trade Jones, and I won't debate that here except to say the following. But yes, you can get a sense of whether Jones wants to re-sign here. If you are too far apart numbers wise, there might be no other options.

So hypothetically, say that we trade for Bourjos and put him in CF, and that makes Jones more likely to leave, would that make you not pull the trigger on the Bourjos trade?

Getting Bourjos would making trading a player like Jones more expendable, you could still have Reimold(or another cheap option in LF) and obviously Markakis isn't going anywhere in RF.

As I said, I don't really care so much if they keep or trade Jones as much as picking a direction this team is headed in and sticking to it. If they want to rebuild fine. If they to spend fine. Just don't be a ~70 win team every year. I'd much rather lose 100 next year so they can win 100 in 5 years than continue in medicrity.

[Kevin Ebert]

Tweet from Danny Knobler of cbssports.com:

Angels now telling teams they want to add a reliever as well as a high-end starter. Bourjos, K Morales available.


Now this is the kind of trade the Orioles should be all over. If they can trade a reliever for Bourjos, that would be a great trade for the O's. Bourjos has at least 4 years left of team control, so he'd be around for a while. He's a plus plus defender. He's not a great hitter but would greatly help the team on defense alone. He's easily a 2-3 WAR player right now with the potential for more if he develops the offensive side of his game.

Duquette should get on the phone with Jerry Dipoto immediately. I'd give up any reliever on the team, including JJ for him. What do you guys think? Who would you give up for him?

[SportsGuy]

Yea, this has been discussed before.

He makes a lot of sense for us, as long as people understand he isn't the 4+ WAR player he showed last year.

But sure, offer up a guy like Lindstrom or Ayala for him and perhaps a lower level prospect.

[LanceRinker]

Yea, this has been discussed before.

He makes a lot of sense for us, as long as people understand he isn't the 4+ WAR player he showed last year.

But sure, offer up a guy like Lindstrom or Ayala for him and perhaps a lower level prospect.

I wouldn't even throw in a low-level prospect. I'd just offer them Lindstrom or Ayala straight up.

Maybe they don't go for that and say they want O'Day - I'd say sure if it's straight up. No sense in adding in prospects, regardless of the low value attached to them at this point, IMO.

[SportsGuy]

I wouldn't even throw in a low-level prospect. I'd just offer them Lindstrom or Ayala straight up.

Maybe they don't go for that and say they want O'Day - I'd say sure if it's straight up. No sense in adding in prospects, regardless of the low value attached to them at this point, IMO.

You are underating Burjous some here...or really overrating our relievers.

[LanceRinker]

You are underating Burjous some here...or really overrating our relievers.

I'm not overrating our relievers - rp's are a volatile bunch. However, the Angels biggest need is in the bullpen and have seemingly been shopping Bourjos for practically two seasons now.

I think they'd let him go for a very solid rp in return. I know they'd do it for Strop. But I wouldn't want to give up Strop. Besides, Bourjos isn't as great as his lone good season indicates. His BABIP was .338 last season, yet he still managed to only muster a .271 batting average. He's not a big power threat so his only real value is if you could plug him into the lead off spot - because he does have some speed and is a good defender.

However - last season, his lone good season which people seem to rave about, his OBP was only .327 - not exactly what I'd look for from my lead off hitter. Which means I'd likely have to bat him eighth or ninth to take advantage of his speed in those spots.

His OBP this season is only .298 and he's batting just .243 now that his BABIP has fallen back around league average (.291).

And for those who will bring it up - his wOBA is still only .288 this year and was .336 last season (again, aided by a very high BABIP).

His lone good season, in which he batted .271, was aided a great deal by luck - IMO.

Why am I going to give up a strong RP AND a prospect for him? Sure, he's only 25 years old and I do think he could be a decent addition - but I'm not jumping over the moon shouting at DD to go get this guy. I'd be happy if we did, but only if the price was right.

[DJ MC]

I'm not overrating our relievers - rp's are a volatile bunch. However, the Angels biggest need is in the bullpen and have seemingly been shopping Bourjos for practically two seasons now.

I think they'd let him go for a very solid rp in return. I know they'd do it for Strop. But I wouldn't want to give up Strop. Besides, Bourjos isn't as great as his lone good season indicates. His BABIP was .338 last season, yet he still managed to only muster a .271 batting average. He's not a big power threat so his only real value is if you could plug him into the lead off spot - because he does have some speed and is a good defender.

However - last season, his lone good season which people seem to rave about, his OBP was only .327 - not exactly what I'd look for from my lead off hitter. Which means I'd likely have to bat him eighth or ninth to take advantage of his speed in those spots.

His OBP this season is only .298 and he's batting just .243 now that his BABIP has fallen back around league average (.291).

And for those who will bring it up - his wOBA is still only .288 this year and was .336 last season (again, aided by a very high BABIP).

His lone good season, in which he batted .271, was aided a great deal by luck - IMO.

Why am I going to give up a strong RP AND a prospect for him? Sure, he's only 25 years old and I do think he could be a decent addition - but I'm not jumping over the moon shouting at DD to go get this guy. I'd be happy if we did, but only if the price was right.

Don't forget, he's a great defensive outfielder. To the point that the Angels play Trout in left when Bourjos is in the game, and he would be the best defensive centerfielder on almost every other team in baseball. I don't know if the Orioles would move Jones, but a Bourjos-Jones-Markakis outfield would be really, really good.

[Mike B]

Tweet from Danny Knobler of cbssports.com:

Angels now telling teams they want to add a reliever as well as a high-end starter. Bourjos, K Morales available.


Now this is the kind of trade the Orioles should be all over. If they can trade a reliever for Bourjos, that would be a great trade for the O's. Bourjos has at least 4 years left of team control, so he'd be around for a while. He's a plus plus defender. He's not a great hitter but would greatly help the team on defense alone. He's easily a 2-3 WAR player right now with the potential for more if he develops the offensive side of his game.

Duquette should get on the phone with Jerry Dipoto immediately. I'd give up any reliever on the team, including JJ for him. What do you guys think? Who would you give up for him?

I would give up any reliever but JJ. We all have a tendency to over rate guys on other teams, but I would have a hard time trading JJ for Bourjos. However a package including JJ for Morales and Bourjos, then that fixes 2 problems IMO.

[LanceRinker]

I would give up any reliever but JJ. We all have a tendency to over rate guys on other teams, but I would have a hard time trading JJ for Bourjos. However a package including JJ for Morales and Bourjos, then that fixes 2 problems IMO.

See - this, I'd be okay with. But Bourjos alone isn't worth more than O'Day/Ayala to me. He's a great defender, but offense is lacking to the point you can't really take advantage of his speed.

[SportsGuy]

I'm not overrating our relievers - rp's are a volatile bunch. However, the Angels biggest need is in the bullpen and have seemingly been shopping Bourjos for practically two seasons now.

I think they'd let him go for a very solid rp in return. I know they'd do it for Strop. But I wouldn't want to give up Strop. Besides, Bourjos isn't as great as his lone good season indicates. His BABIP was .338 last season, yet he still managed to only muster a .271 batting average. He's not a big power threat so his only real value is if you could plug him into the lead off spot - because he does have some speed and is a good defender.

However - last season, his lone good season which people seem to rave about, his OBP was only .327 - not exactly what I'd look for from my lead off hitter. Which means I'd likely have to bat him eighth or ninth to take advantage of his speed in those spots.

His OBP this season is only .298 and he's batting just .243 now that his BABIP has fallen back around league average (.291).

And for those who will bring it up - his wOBA is still only .288 this year and was .336 last season (again, aided by a very high BABIP).

His lone good season, in which he batted .271, was aided a great deal by luck - IMO.

Why am I going to give up a strong RP AND a prospect for him? Sure, he's only 25 years old and I do think he could be a decent addition - but I'm not jumping over the moon shouting at DD to go get this guy. I'd be happy if we did, but only if the price was right.

Oh, I'm with you that he isn't as good as he showed last year. I have had that argument with many since the offseason started.

That being said, he is worth more than a dime a dozen reliever.

If we would use him in CF, I would trade Strop for him.(I may anyway)

But I think I would rather use Strop in another deal and use one of the other relievers and a lower level prospect.

[mweb08]

He's certainly fallen off with the bat, which was to be expected to an extent, but not this much. If he can be adequate with the bat, his D is good enough to make him a 3+ WAR player. Based on pace, he actually would be about a 3 fWAR guy this year with enough playing time. I'd definitely be willing to give up any reliever other than Johnson and Strop for him and would give them two relievers or include a low level prospect if need be.

[LanceRinker]

Oh, I'm with you that he isn't as good as he showed last year. I have had that argument with many since the offseason started.

That being said, he is worth more than a dime a dozen reliever.

If we would use him in CF, I would trade Strop for him.(I may anyway)

But I think I would rather use Strop in another deal and use one of the other relievers and a lower level prospect.

Yeah, he's better than most guys playing the outfield - especially on defense. But his real value is in center field and I'm not sure if I see Jones making the move to LF to accommodate Bourjos. Then again - Jones has been a very team oriented player so he very well just may.

If that were the case then yeah - I'd go after Bourjos to be our every day CF'er.

The years of team control left on him would be worth giving up a solid RP as well - I just don't think it would take much more than that for the Angels to part ways with him at this point. They were asking far too much for him last season and now are willing to take a solid bullpen arm for him this year. I'd jump on that.