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#81 SportsGuy

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:44 AM

You were talking about how people should have historically known this, which just doesn't add up. As far as now, well they should look into it, but when someone signs up to play football at any level, they should be made fully aware of the risks in a way that isn't meant to just gloss over and get a waiver signed. I don't see how that's too much to ask for.


1). Yes, they should have known it wasn't good for you. To what level, maybe they didn't know but when something is bad, it should give you pause.

2) Yea, I just disagree....at least to the level you sure talking. There is easily enough easily attainable info out there for anyone to make an informed decision. I don't see how anything can be held against the leagues at this point about that.

#82 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:48 AM

I'm aware youth football participation is dropping. I don't buy that it's a big deal. In fact, I'm fairly confident it isn't.

#83 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:50 AM

The coal miner analogy is solid. If someone found out the risks mid career for instance, then they were put in a terrible situation. They still had to provide for themselves and possibly a family, yet may not have had good alternatives to do so. If that decide to continue on, I think it's inhumane and unreasonable to just say oh well.

Football is different due to the money involved, but the decision would still be a very difficult one for guys, especially depending on their other options and where they are in the football career (or potential career) path.

 

What about the guy that had never coal mined before...  saw the risks that previous coal miners faced, and still wanted to do that?

 

Beyond that, I'll feel compassion / empathy for the players of today who continue to play, and experience issues later in their lives. I won't feel they are justified if they sue though.  The risks are now known, and they've made the choice.



#84 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:50 AM

You were talking about how people should have historically known this, which just doesn't add up. As far as now, well they should look into it, but when someone signs up to play football at any level, they should be made fully aware of the risks in a way that isn't meant to just gloss over and get a waiver signed. I don't see how that's too much to ask for.



1). Yes, they should have known it wasn't good for you. To what level, maybe they didn't know but when something is bad, it should give you pause.


2) Yea, I just disagree....at least to the level you sure talking. There is easily enough easily attainable info out there for anyone to make an informed decision. I don't see how anything can be held against the leagues at this point about that.


Knowing it's not good for you and knowing to what extent it's not good for you is a huge distinction.

It's pretty baffling that anyone would be against football leagues at various levels providing proper education of the risks involved.

#85 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:52 AM

The coal miner analogy is solid. If someone found out the risks mid career for instance, then they were put in a terrible situation. They still had to provide for themselves and possibly a family, yet may not have had good alternatives to do so. If that decide to continue on, I think it's inhumane and unreasonable to just say oh well.


Football is different due to the money involved, but the decision would still be a very difficult one for guys, especially depending on their other options and where they are in the football career (or potential career) path.

 
What about the guy that had never coal mined before...  saw the risks that previous coal miners faced, and still wanted to do that?
 
Beyond that, I'll feel compassion / empathy for the players of today who continue to play, and experience issues later in their lives. I won't feel they are justified if they sue though.  The risks are now known, and they've made the choice.


I'm not really talking about the legal aspect of this even though the league should have been and probably still should be more willing to own this issue and invest resources to help out with it rather than doing their best to sweep it under the rug.

#86 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 09:57 AM

I'm not really talking about the legal aspect of this even though the league should have been and probably still should be more willing to own this issue and invest resources to help out with it rather than doing their best to sweep it under the rug.

 

The league should do more for previous players (including those not impacted by concussions). Certainly should own the issue. Certainly should be admonished for what they did with the previous studies, trying to stack the deck.

 

That said, the question becomes what happens going forward?  We've talked about the participation levels, and that is something to watch.

 

I agree, increased education of the impact at all levels makes sense. I just think we've reached a saturation point where there is a general level of awareness of the risks, and those choosing to continue to play are aware of the risks.

 

If I was watching guys play, and didn't believe they knew the risks... I'd struggle more with being a fan.



#87 SportsGuy

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:10 AM

Knowing it's not good for you and knowing to what extent it's not good for you is a huge distinction.

It's pretty baffling that anyone would be against football leagues at various levels providing proper education of the risks involved.


The education is there now, without the leagues doing more. If people can't figure it out on their own from here, oh well..that's on them.

#88 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:11 AM

I'm not really talking about the legal aspect of this even though the league should have been and probably still should be more willing to own this issue and invest resources to help out with it rather than doing their best to sweep it under the rug.

 
The league should do more for previous players (including those not impacted by concussions). Certainly should own the issue. Certainly should be admonished for what they did with the previous studies, trying to stack the deck.
 
That said, the question becomes what happens going forward?  We've talked about the participation levels, and that is something to watch.
 
I agree, increased education of the impact at all levels makes sense. I just think we've reached a saturation point where there is a general level of awareness of the risks, and those choosing to continue to play are aware of the risks.
 
If I was watching guys play, and didn't believe they knew the risks... I'd struggle more with being a fan.


There is no way we've reached a saturation point on education of this. Maybe for people on message boards, even though I doubt that, but no way in terms of more casual fans or non fans that have kids interested in playing. Ask the kids on my high school's football teams. Even ask coaches at these schools and some aren't going to be that educated. Possibly more importantly, many of the coaches and organizers of youth football all the way up to the pros are at least somewhat dismissive of the risks because they've been around the game their whole lives and can't be objective.

#89 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:13 AM

Knowing it's not good for you and knowing to what extent it's not good for you is a huge distinction.


It's pretty baffling that anyone would be against football leagues at various levels providing proper education of the risks involved.



The education is there now, without the leagues doing more. If people can't figure it out on their own from here, oh well..that's on them.


Way to take responsibility to educate away from the rich and powerful NFL and NCAA and put it totally on the young athletes, many coming from disadvantaged backgrounds.

#90 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:14 AM

There is no way we've reached a saturation point on education of this. Maybe for people on message boards, even though I doubt that, but no way in terms of more casual fans or non fans that have kids interested in playing. Ask the kids on my high school's football teams. Even ask coaches at these schools and some aren't going to be that educated. Possibly more importantly, many of the coaches and organizers of youth football all the way up to the pros are at least somewhat dismissive of the risks because they've been around the game their whole lives and can't be objective.

 

The saturation point bar wouldn't be with message board posters, casual fans, or non fans... it would be with players at the HS, College, and Pro level.  You could convince me that there is a lack of knowledge overall at the Youth level.... but by the time we get to current HS players, I bet the risks are mostly known.

 

Hard to believe otherwise, given how much this topic has been discussed.

 

Like you said though, do agree with Will Smith's movie will create further attention.



#91 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:15 AM

Going back to the prospective coal miner that is truly making an informed decision, well that's on largely him. However, as a society, we should be doing our best to prevent that type of decision from even being made.

#92 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:16 AM

There is no way we've reached a saturation point on education of this. Maybe for people on message boards, even though I doubt that, but no way in terms of more casual fans or non fans that have kids interested in playing. Ask the kids on my high school's football teams. Even ask coaches at these schools and some aren't going to be that educated. Possibly more importantly, many of the coaches and organizers of youth football all the way up to the pros are at least somewhat dismissive of the risks because they've been around the game their whole lives and can't be objective.

 
The saturation point bar wouldn't be with message board posters, casual fans, or non fans... it would be with players at the HS, College, and Pro level.  You could convince me that there is a lack of knowledge overall at the Youth level.... but by the time we get to current HS players, I bet the risks are mostly known.


No way.

#93 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:17 AM

Going back to the prospective coal miner that is truly making an informed decision, well that's on largely him. However, as a society, we should be doing our best to prevent that type of decision from even being made.

 

We should do our best to educate on the risks, and to provide alternatives (in that case, improved education, and alternative job opportunities)... but if people knowingly take on the risks, there is nothing more for society to do.



#94 DJ MC

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:17 AM

The education is there now, without the leagues doing more. If people can't figure it out on their own from here, oh well..that's on them.

 

This is exactly what the NFL hopes people think,


@DJ_McCann

#95 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:18 AM

No way.

 

Crazy talk imo.  OTL was doing stories on concussion risks 20 years +/- ago.

Just don't see how the concussion risk isn't common knowledge at this point with the people (players and their families) highly vested in the sport.

 

The education and awareness will only continue though.



#96 DJ MC

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:30 AM

People always bring up that the violence of the sport should have clued players into the fact that they were doing long-term damage to their bodies. And they are correct; players have always known that. They have felt the pains, and pushed through the recoveries, and taken the drugs (legal and not), and they have seen the players before them fall apart. Knee replacements, permanent scars and nerve damage, losses of body parts, even paralysis; football players have always been prepared for the sudden, irreparable injuries that can occur on a football field.

 

But CTE is different. This is something that moves slowly, that can take someone in otherwise fine health and destroy their life by destroying their brain. And it's not caused by something major but, from what the evidence seems to show, the simple, everyday actions of playing football. And instead of being able to spend a painful but otherwise pleasant retirement enjoying your family and reliving your glory days, it changes your personality and kills your memory. That's scary, and it isn't what any of these players agreed to when they signed up to give their bodies to the sport.

 

The NFL itself has a vested interest in protecting these players. They are the ones who are the true heart of the league, who give interviews, and spend time officially and unofficially with fans, and essentially act as the best recruitment tool for the future generations of people giving up their bodies to try and reach for that glory, too. But the league hasn't done that, and I don't think it's a particularly far leap to assume that there will be more and more coming out over time in how much they tried to keep this knowledge from the players. And once those players jump ship, the league will be truly in deep trouble long-term.


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@DJ_McCann

#97 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:33 AM

People always bring up that the violence of the sport should have clued players into the fact that they were doing long-term damage to their bodies. And they are correct; players have always known that. They have felt the pains, and pushed through the recoveries, and taken the drugs (legal and not), and they have seen the players before them fall apart. Knee replacements, permanent scars and nerve damage, losses of body parts, even paralysis; football players have always been prepared for the sudden, irreparable injuries that can occur on a football field.

 

But CTE is different. This is something that moves slowly, that can take someone in otherwise fine health and destroy their life by destroying their brain. And it's not caused by something major but, from what the evidence seems to show, the simple, everyday actions of playing football. And instead of being able to spend a painful but otherwise pleasant retirement enjoying your family and reliving your glory days, it changes your personality and kills your memory. That's scary, and it isn't what any of these players agreed to when they signed up to give their bodies to the sport.

 

The NFL itself has a vested interest in protecting these players. They are the ones who are the true heart of the league, who give interviews, and spend time officially and unofficially with fans, and essentially act as the best recruitment tool for the future generations of people giving up their bodies to try and reach for that glory, too. But the league hasn't done that, and I don't think it's a particularly far leap to assume that there will be more and more coming out over time in how much they tried to keep this knowledge from the players. And once those players jump ship, the league will be truly in deep trouble long-term.

 

I mostly agree here DJ, and that's why (plus the NFL's suppression of evidence) is why the NFL owes previous players a lot....  but going forward, I think current and future players have to shoulder the responsibility of knowingly accepting the risk of playing.

 

Again, unless they are being told inaccurate information from team docs.



#98 SportsGuy

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:34 AM

Way to take responsibility to educate away from the rich and powerful NFL and NCAA and put it totally on the young athletes, many coming from disadvantaged backgrounds.

Oh Christ, save me the disadvantaged background bs. They watch sports center. They watch football. They get online. There are plenty of ways for them to get the info. It's just a matter of of they want to hear it or not. And guess what, the coaches and parents can do the same stuff.

And I'm not saying the NFL shouldn't provide more info, im saying if they don't, there is enough out there for people to make an informed decision.

If you want to put the past on the NFL, whatever. I still think that's bs but it is what it is.

But the now and future is on the individual at this point. There is enough info out there to figure it out.

I'm not like you...I expect people to be able to think for themselves and not always have to have their hands out for anything to help them through life.

#99 SportsGuy

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:34 AM

This is exactly what the NFL hopes people think,


Thanks for your input?

#100 mweb08

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Posted 19 September 2015 - 10:57 AM

Going back to the prospective coal miner that is truly making an informed decision, well that's on largely him. However, as a society, we should be doing our best to prevent that type of decision from even being made.

 
We should do our best to educate on the risks, and to provide alternatives (in that case, improved education, and alternative job opportunities)... but if people knowingly take on the risks, there is nothing more for society to do.


While we disagree about how much people know about this (and I'm around high school students consistently), at least you support better education, so ultimately we agree on that.

As far as a society, sure there is more to do. We could move on from coal mining or the NFL, at least as we know it. Or put a great deal of resources into making it safer. There are certainly options.




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