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#41 Oriole85

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

I could see a scenario where BRob and Flaherty get into a platoon kind of situation next season if BRob's healthy. Not your usual lefty/righty platoon but one where Roberts gets the day off every third or fourth game and Flaherty steps in.

Andino would just rotate around the infield (3B/SS).

I'm confused, are we traded Hardy and keeping Machado at third?
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#42 LanceRinker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

I'm confused, are we traded Hardy and keeping Machado at third?


I mean Andino would see time as the utility/back up guy.

#43 Oriole85

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:39 PM

I mean Andino would see time as the utility/back up guy.

understood
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#44 LanceRinker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:09 PM

understood


Yeah, there's no chance we move Machado and I'm actually starting to think that with his arm and overall size he makes a better third baseman overall. Just my opinion though, I'm sure many would disagree with me.

He could still play a decent shortstop defensively but not sure the point in moving him to SS after Hardy is gone just to move him back to third once he becomes a bit too bulky (muscle mass wise) to move around SS quick enough. Although, Hardy isn't exactly fast but he's able to rely on his knowledge of the position to be in the right spot just about every time and anticipate the ball.

Not sure if that's something Machado would do just as well as him though.

Anyone who does some scouting have an opinion on this? I'd love to hear it.

#45 Mackus

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:17 PM

Yeah, there's no chance we move Machado and I'm actually starting to think that with his arm and overall size he makes a better third baseman overall. Just my opinion though, I'm sure many would disagree with me.

He could still play a decent shortstop defensively but not sure the point in moving him to SS after Hardy is gone just to move him back to third once he becomes a bit too bulky (muscle mass wise) to move around SS quick enough.

I think that barring a major weight gain over the next two seasons which limits his range, Machado will likely be the next Orioles SS. It's just a question of when Hardy moves.

Of course, if he ends up adding a lot of mass and becoming a much bigger power threat, then maybe at that point you just leave him at 3B. But if you think he can play SS at a good level, then he's much more valuable in general than he would be at 3B. Of course, if you've got another viable SS option but not another viable 3B option, then perhaps that equation changes.

Many variables in that decision, but most important is how good could Machado be defensively as a SS. He doesn't have to be a better SS than he is a 3B, but he would have to be able to be a pretty decent SS to make the move. Average at least.

#46 Tucker Blair

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:21 PM

I seem to be the lone wolf on this topic. Which is fine :D


I am all for learning at the MLB level, but there is a difference between Flaherty and Machado doing it. Machado has nothing left to prove in the minors. Flaherty has quite a few things to improve on, inlcuding his plate discipline and working on secondary pitches. I still think his defense is nowhere near the level needed at the MLB level. Being versatile is fine and dandy, but I would rather have someone whom can play each position well. Flaherty was a Rule 5 guy for a reason...He wasn't viewed as being ready. If the Cubs didn't protect them (which they probably should have), then there has to be a reason.

Sure he can struggle and learn on the fly at the MLB level. That is only hurting the Orioles, and that is why they need to upgrade the position in some way IMO. I am not sure *how* they will do that, but it's something to look at in my eyes.

If the team really wants to compete next season, they cannot go into the season with Andino and Flaherty as the options at 2B. That is of course assuming Roberts is "done". Not even sure on Quintanilla. Find it hard to believe he is even an option besides as a utility guy.

#47 SportsGuy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

I think Flaherty would be fine as the UTi guy or playing everyday in AAA. Being the everyday ML SS shouldn't be an option unless you feel Schoop will be ready very quickly and you just need a stop gap and don want to spend any money on it.

#48 Oriole85

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

Yeah, there's no chance we move Machado and I'm actually starting to think that with his arm and overall size he makes a better third baseman overall. Just my opinion though, I'm sure many would disagree with me.

He could still play a decent shortstop defensively but not sure the point in moving him to SS after Hardy is gone just to move him back to third once he becomes a bit too bulky (muscle mass wise) to move around SS quick enough. Although, Hardy isn't exactly fast but he's able to rely on his knowledge of the position to be in the right spot just about every time and anticipate the ball.

Not sure if that's something Machado would do just as well as him though.

Anyone who does some scouting have an opinion on this? I'd love to hear it.

I'd love to see him at short, but I'm all for keeping the JJ-Machado in their current slots for the time being. Machado at third wouldn't be so bad, and I think his offense will only be better.
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#49 RichardZ

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:22 PM

I seem to be the lone wolf on this topic. Which is fine :D


I am all for learning at the MLB level, but there is a difference between Flaherty and Machado doing it. Machado has nothing left to prove in the minors. Flaherty has quite a few things to improve on, inlcuding his plate discipline and working on secondary pitches. I still think his defense is nowhere near the level needed at the MLB level. Being versatile is fine and dandy, but I would rather have someone whom can play each position well. Flaherty was a Rule 5 guy for a reason...He wasn't viewed as being ready. If the Cubs didn't protect them (which they probably should have), then there has to be a reason.

Sure he can struggle and learn on the fly at the MLB level. That is only hurting the Orioles, and that is why they need to upgrade the position in some way IMO. I am not sure *how* they will do that, but it's something to look at in my eyes.

If the team really wants to compete next season, they cannot go into the season with Andino and Flaherty as the options at 2B. That is of course assuming Roberts is "done". Not even sure on Quintanilla. Find it hard to believe he is even an option besides as a utility guy.



Machado didn't really excel with the bat at AA. He did fine in the majors. However, he needs to work on exactly the same things that Flaherty does, as you say, plate discipline and handling secondary pitches.

Your comment that the O's can't compete with Flaherty and Andino at 2B is funny because they did exactly that this year. Andino was worse than he was in 2011. Roberts played a little and was terrible. Quintanill wasn't any better. And Flaherty was pretty bad in the first half and didn't play a lot in the 2nd half although he did do better. We do not need an all-star at every position to compete. We proved that this year. We differ on Flaherty's defense. I think it's ML caliber but nothing more than average. His offense will tell the story. I see a nice swing, good bat speed, and easy power to all fields. How much in plays "in game" is yet to be determined but I think we saw a glimpse over the last two months. That's enough for me to think there's more there.

#50 JeremyStrain

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:32 PM

Yeah, there's no chance we move Machado and I'm actually starting to think that with his arm and overall size he makes a better third baseman overall. Just my opinion though, I'm sure many would disagree with me.

He could still play a decent shortstop defensively but not sure the point in moving him to SS after Hardy is gone just to move him back to third once he becomes a bit too bulky (muscle mass wise) to move around SS quick enough. Although, Hardy isn't exactly fast but he's able to rely on his knowledge of the position to be in the right spot just about every time and anticipate the ball.

Not sure if that's something Machado would do just as well as him though.

Anyone who does some scouting have an opinion on this? I'd love to hear it.


http://camdendepot.b...erspective.html
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#51 Tucker Blair

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:47 PM

Machado didn't really excel with the bat at AA. He did fine in the majors. However, he needs to work on exactly the same things that Flaherty does, as you say, plate discipline and handling secondary pitches.

Your comment that the O's can't compete with Flaherty and Andino at 2B is funny because they did exactly that this year. Andino was worse than he was in 2011. Roberts played a little and was terrible. Quintanill wasn't any better. And Flaherty was pretty bad in the first half and didn't play a lot in the 2nd half although he did do better. We do not need an all-star at every position to compete. We proved that this year. We differ on Flaherty's defense. I think it's ML caliber but nothing more than average. His offense will tell the story. I see a nice swing, good bat speed, and easy power to all fields. How much in plays "in game" is yet to be determined but I think we saw a glimpse over the last two months. That's enough for me to think there's more there.


I saw Machado play around 20 times at Bowie. He had nothing left to learn in those aspects. He is ready to learn at the MLB level. Much different from Flaherty whom never mastered any of this at the Minor league level. Just go back and read all the reports on him. (I'll search for them If I find the time, but there are some really good ones floating around online). Not much has changed in my eyes. There is much more to it than just a nice swing and good bat speed. A lot of players have those traits from the AA-MLB level.

They cannot expect any team improvement with those two at 2B. I'm not sure why everyone is so satisfied with the product at 2B. Yea ,they do not need an all star at every position. I don't expect that. They were lucky to get by with the level of play there this season. It's a weakness.

I am not saying there is not improvement to be had. He can absolutely still improve. I guess my point is that you wouldn't see the Yankees go into a season with this type of player as the option. The Orioles shouldn't either.

I hate being the negative one, but I just view 2B as a spot with much needed improvement, and just do not view Flaherty as the guy right now. I sure as heck hope he goes and proves me wrong in ST. I'll be the first guy to jump up and say I was wrong. Also, I do realize that there really is not much to actually provide evidence of anything better at the time.

#52 LanceRinker

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:17 PM

http://camdendepot.b...erspective.html


Excellent review on Machado's defense and the demands of each position defensively. That's why I felt that Machado would be better suited to stay at third base and we keep Hardy at SS, at least through the run of his contract at the very least.

I just wanted someone's opinion on it that would have a better idea on it than I would.

Thanks.

#53 RichardZ

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:30 AM

I saw Machado play around 20 times at Bowie. He had nothing left to learn in those aspects. He is ready to learn at the MLB level. Much different from Flaherty whom never mastered any of this at the Minor league level. Just go back and read all the reports on him. (I'll search for them If I find the time, but there are some really good ones floating around online). Not much has changed in my eyes. There is much more to it than just a nice swing and good bat speed. A lot of players have those traits from the AA-MLB level.

They cannot expect any team improvement with those two at 2B. I'm not sure why everyone is so satisfied with the product at 2B. Yea ,they do not need an all star at every position. I don't expect that. They were lucky to get by with the level of play there this season. It's a weakness.

I am not saying there is not improvement to be had. He can absolutely still improve. I guess my point is that you wouldn't see the Yankees go into a season with this type of player as the option. The Orioles shouldn't either.

I hate being the negative one, but I just view 2B as a spot with much needed improvement, and just do not view Flaherty as the guy right now. I sure as heck hope he goes and proves me wrong in ST. I'll be the first guy to jump up and say I was wrong. Also, I do realize that there really is not much to actually provide evidence of anything better at the time.



Not much to argue about if you think the O's should or could operate like tha Yankees.

Also, I never saw Machado or Flaherty play at the AA level. Flaherty's plate discipline numbers were quite good (I think beter than Machado's of course at a much older age), at AA. If you look at Machado's walk/strikeout numbers for the Orioles, he certainly needs to get more patience at the plate, Flaherty moreso. Each player averaged a walk about every 10 AB's in the minors, yet Machado mastered plate discipline and Flaherty never did?

I really take exception to your statement that the Orioles can't see any team improvement from those two (Flaherty/Andino) at 2B. I'm not even a fan of Andino but if he hits like he did in 2011 that's improvment right there. If Flaherty puts up a .700 OPS that's improvment. It's not going out on a limb to see improvment with the status quo (obviously Flaherty would see a lot more time in 2013 than he did in 2012).

#54 Tucker Blair

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:02 AM

Not much to argue about if you think the O's should or could operate like tha Yankees.

Also, I never saw Machado or Flaherty play at the AA level. Flaherty's plate discipline numbers were quite good (I think beter than Machado's of course at a much older age), at AA. If you look at Machado's walk/strikeout numbers for the Orioles, he certainly needs to get more patience at the plate, Flaherty moreso. Each player averaged a walk about every 10 AB's in the minors, yet Machado mastered plate discipline and Flaherty never did?

I really take exception to your statement that the Orioles can't see any team improvement from those two (Flaherty/Andino) at 2B. I'm not even a fan of Andino but if he hits like he did in 2011 that's improvment right there. If Flaherty puts up a .700 OPS that's improvment. It's not going out on a limb to see improvment with the status quo (obviously Flaherty would see a lot more time in 2013 than he did in 2012).


If you had not seen Machado play at the MiLB level then I am not sure why my words are so hard to understand. Anyone whom watched him the past two years could tell you that he had very little left to grasp in the minors. You cannot use numbers for every aspect of baseball. In fact, people get entirely too tied up with numbers sometimes. Plate discipline does not just involve taking a walk. Plate discipline could be laying off that 1-2 slider away. Plate discipline could be actually swinging at the change up in the corner of the zone and fouling it off to stay alive. Machado is 20 years old and already proved in the minors that he has a solid grasp on this. He still has work to do obviously, but it's time for him to get that in at the MLB level. I'm not some super expert, but in my eyes, Flaherty could use some time to work on these things in AAA. It's my opinion, and I am not forcing you to agree with it. I would hope that not everyone always agrees with me.

I never said they should operate like the Yankees. Please do not put words into my mouth. I meant they should attempt to upgrade a position when they can. The Yankees would not settle for "status quo" at a position like that if they didn't have to. Why should the Orioles? In fact, why should any team that is trying to compete, which everyone wants to do. I realize it is not always possible to upgrade and find clear fixes, but that does not mean they should not try to do that.

It might not be going out on a limb to say they could marginally improve, but if that is what you want to head into 2013 with at 2B, then alright...You won't be the only one. I am in a small field on my side, but I will stand by my ground and say that Flaherty needs seasoning in the minors still. I think 2B can and should be improved, in some way. I don't have all the answers, and don't plan on acting like it. I will defend what I think though.

#55 BobPhelan

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:33 PM

I'd start Flaherty at AAA unless he comes into ST and shows a significant improvement in defense/plate discipline. You have to at least bring in someone else to compete for the 2B job. Its one area where we can improve mightily. We know Flaherty can be a valuable bench player, I'd like to see him get everyday at bats with Norfolk and see if he can be more than that.

#56 RShack

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:48 PM

They cannot expect any team improvement with those two at 2B.

Now, this makes no sense to me.

I can understand if you're not crazy about Flaherty and Andino. I can understand that you think expecting improvement from Flaherty is iffy. But I don't understand how you can say the part quoted above.

I also don't understand how you can think 2B is a slam dunk for improvement via other options when the other options aren't so hot either.

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#57 Tucker Blair

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:59 PM

Now, this makes no sense to me.

I can understand if you're not crazy about Flaherty and Andino. I can understand that you think expecting improvement from Flaherty is iffy. But I don't understand how you can say the part quoted above.

I also don't understand how you can think 2B is a slam dunk for improvement via other options when the other options aren't so hot either.


If you want to nitpick one line that I write while completely disregarding the rest, then be my guest. Apparently the rest of what I wrote was irrelevant to you.

#58 RShack

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:04 AM

If you want to nitpick one line that I write while completely disregarding the rest, then be my guest. Apparently the rest of what I wrote was irrelevant to you.

I don't see what you're being so thin-skinned about. I didn't ignore what you said, and I didn't blast your opinion either. To the contrary, I explicitly acknowledged that I can understand how you might be dubious about Flaherty (as well as Andino), it's not like I blew it off. I simply asked you why you were making the rather extreme blanket statement that the team can't improve if they use him at 2B. Face it, you provided zero rationale for saying that, but you did say it, it's not like I'm putting words in your mouth. Now, you're getting all prickly just because I asked you about it.

I have no problem if you wanna make extreme blanket statements. You might make some statements like that which are completely correct, or at least supportable. But I don't see how you can make blanket statements and then act insulted just because somebody says it doesn't make sense to them and just asks you to explain it.

A similar thing happened with Nate. You said that there is a consensus that he is strictly a 4th OF'er. You said it a couple different times. I asked you about that too. When I asked, I didn't blast you for having questions about him. I explicitly acknowledged that there have been two very different level of performance in his career, and that I can understand how folks think it's unclear which version might be the real him going forward. So, it's not like I took some one-sided view and blasted you for doubting McLouth. I didn't. Rather, I just asked you about the extreme blanket statement that there is some kind of consensus that he's strictly a 4th OF'er. I asked you why he's viewed that way, and I asked why you think that is some kind of consensus view. You didn't address either one.

It's completely normal for discussions to feature people asking other people why they said what they said. It's not some weird thing to ask you that. It's also completely normal for people to respond by explaining why they said what they said. That's not weird either, it's normal. SG tried to answer part of the question I asked, when he pointed out that 4th OF'er is kinda splitting the diff between the 2 versions of Nate. That answer does make some sense, I could understand it if you explained it that way. But it still doesn't explain why you think there's a consensus about it.

All in all, it's fine with me if you wanna make extreme blanket statements. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't think you should get all prickly just because you are asked to explain what you said. It's not like anybody here is an oracle whose opinion is beyond being questioned. Rather, it's perfectly normal for folks to back up what they say, it happens all the time. I don't see why you'd be any different in that regard than anybody else.

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#59 Oriole85

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

MASN: Flaherty preparing for winter league stint in the Dominican

http://www.masnsport...-dominican.html

He was the first player born in Maine with a postseason homer.

Great trivia question!
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#60 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:49 AM

Baltimore Sun: Focusing on Flaherty
http://www.baltimore...0,7542424.story




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