520 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

No Felix

Basically no Bradish, Means, Wells.
Lost Rodriguez 7/31.

Lost Westburg, DC, and Webb for a prolonged time.
Kimbrell imploded. 
Lost Mateo's defense and athleticism.

Rutschman didn't hit in the 2nd half. 
Holliday and Mayo didn't produce immediately in their opportunities. 

 

None of that is about leadership or lack thereof.

[Mackus]

The sloppiness, which shows up both defensively and offensively, is about bad leadership, IMO.

[BSLChrisStoner]

The O's could do nothing this Winter, and I'd still expect them to win 90+ games next year, and be very capable of winning it all.

What I do expect is that Burnes will be gone, and they'll add a front-end starter to go with Rodrguez and Eflin. 

[makoman]

The annoying part is that Bradish, Grayson, Wells, Means, Felix, don't change the WC series at all. I guess maybe you get the bye instead, but the hitting was exposed in a bad way, a lot like the prior several months.

[BSLChrisStoner]

The annoying part is that Bradish, Grayson, Wells, Means, Felix, don't change the WC series at all. I guess maybe you get the bye instead, but the hitting was exposed in a bad way, a lot like the prior several months.

The O's finished 4th overall in runs scored.

They were poor with RISP.
They were reliant on their slugging.
But they finished 4th in runs scored. It's a productive lineup. 

 

Rutschman didn't hit in the 2nd half.

Santander is now likely gone. 

 

Do Holliday and Mayo hit next year after getting their feet wet?

Do Westburg and Cowser have any remaining ceiling?
Does Adley find himself again?
Can Kjerstad approach Santander's career averages?

 

It will be a productive line up again next year. 

Will they be better with RISP?

Can they adjust their approach some depending on game situation? That would be good to see. 

[BSLMikeLowe]

Here's Britt being honest and unmerciful.

 

 

 

Ghiroli: The Orioles’ honeymoon is over, and their front office needs to find answers - The Athletic (nytimes.com)

Great analogy about the Blue Jays serving as a cautionary tale. Seems like yesterday they were going to be the next great AL East power.

[dude]

The goodwill is gone. The vibes in Birdland were through the roof coming off multiple intentionally horrific seasons to restock the farm. Something not all of us approved of, but we all saw the results of: the return of competent baseball to Baltimore. 

 

[multiple intentionally horrific seasons] was not (is not) causal to [the return of competent baseball]

[Mackus]

The O's finished 4th overall in runs scored.

They were poor with RISP.
They were reliant on their slugging.
But they finished 4th in runs scored. It's a productive lineup. 

 

Rutschman didn't hit in the 2nd half.

Santander is now likely gone. 

 

Do Holliday and Mayo hit next year after getting their feet wet?

Do Westburg and Cowser have any remaining ceiling?
Does Adley find himself again?
Can Kjerstad approach Santander's career averages?

 

It will be a productive line up again next year. 

Will they be better with RISP?

Can they adjust their approach some depending on game situation? That would be good to see. 

 

I expect a playoff run next year even if they don't do much in free agency / trade, don't make a managerial change, and don't do anything major to shake up the core.  The talent level is astonishing.  But I want more.  Its not only about gearing up for postseason, you have to get there, and I don't think there is any one type of team that is better suited for postseason play.  But I think the flaws that showed this year where guys don't play with focus every day is the current limiting factor for this team.  It doesn't have to always bite you in the first round, eventually they'll advance based on talent alone, but if its not corrected it'll bite you eventually during your run to the World Series.  You can't just decide to do things right when it matters, you gotta do it all the time.  That's what the last good Orioles era did.  I think we lack that now.  Maybe its leadership, maybe its just the personalities of everyone involved.   Whatever the case, I think cleaning that up is as important as any roster moves we might make.

 

Its a great core and the team is in great position.  But we don't just have a few holes that need external solutions.  I think we need internal growth.

[Slidemaster]

No Felix
Basically no Bradish, Means, Wells.
Lost Rodriguez 7/31.
Lost Westburg, DC, and Webb for a prolonged time.
Kimbrell imploded.
Lost Mateo's defense and athleticism.
Rutschman didn't hit in the 2nd half.
Holliday and Mayo didn't produce immediately in their opportunities.

None of that is about leadership or lack thereof.

I expect them to be good again next year. How good I'm not sure. Last year felt like a high roll in terms of results and what went right. This year felt like it regressed hard back to the mean, and possibly past it to the other side of probability. I expect next year to be somewhere between the two. I assuming they add valuable pieces over the winter, I think a 95 win season is perfectly within range.

[BSLChrisStoner]

But I think the flaws that showed this year where guys don't play with focus every day is the current limiting factor for this team.  You can't just decide to do things right when it matters, you gotta do it all the time.  That's what the last good Orioles era did.  I think we lack that now.  Maybe its leadership, maybe its just the personalities of everyone involved.   Whatever the case, I think cleaning that up is as important as any roster moves we might make.

 

Its a great core and the team is in great position.  But we don't just have a few holes that need external solutions.  I think we need internal growth.

 

Right today, we're looking at an everyday lineup of: 

Gunnar Henderson SS
Jordan Westburg 3rd
Ryan O’Hearn DH
Kjerstad RF
Adley Rutschman C
Colton Cowser LF
Mayo 1st
Jackson Holliday 2nd
Cedric Mullins CF

 

Who do you think lacks focus?

[BSLRoseKatz]

The annoying part is that Bradish, Grayson, Wells, Means, Felix, don't change the WC series at all. I guess maybe you get the bye instead, but the hitting was exposed in a bad way, a lot like the prior several months.

 

Yeah I was thinking about that too, they lost their insane lockdown closer and proceeded to lose 5 playoff games in which none of them included blowing a late lead that Felix could've theoretically protected

[Mackus]

Who do you think lacks focus?

 

All of them as a group.  It's not about one guy picking daisies in the outfield.  It's about playing tight together as a team.  That takes focus, which takes leadership to maintain.  I don't think any of us can point to any particular veteran to add or player here who can step up.  We can guess, and maybe guess right, but its not a directly quantifiable thing.

[makoman]

Elias said Hyde is coming back, so that's that.

 

https://twitter.com/...872887998824475

 

Kostka also said that Elias made no assurances about the rest of the coaches, they will have an evaluation period.

[Mackus]

Strongly dislike that decision. Highly doubt any improvement to the little things is possible under Hyde's management. Hope to be proven wrong, but very doubtful.

[BSLChrisStoner]

All of them as a group.  It's not about one guy picking daisies in the outfield.  It's about playing tight together as a team.  That takes focus, which takes leadership to maintain.  I don't think any of us can point to any particular veteran to add or player here who can step up.  We can guess, and maybe guess right, but its not a directly quantifiable thing.

I don't think any of us can point and say they lack focus or leadership. That's also just a guess. 

[Mackus]

I don't think any of us can point and say they lack focus or leadership. That's also just a guess. 

 

They lacked whatever characteristic it is that gets a team to play clean consistently.  The mental mistakes, the wrong assumptions, the little things that go wrong, the wasted at bats...all of it has a common theme.  They didn't play sloppy last season, so maybe its something that can fluctuate.  But I think staying frosty all the time takes focus, and they haven't done that.

 

I don't think that's the only concern.  The chokes or limps to the finish line each of the last three years are a different aspect of the mental side of the game, and that's something I'm worried about, too. 

 

The talent level is the thing I'm least worried about.  Still work to go there to fill out the roster and would like to add a bit up top especially pitching, but it'll be a strong roster for the next few years at least.  Strong roster isn't enough to get where I wanna go.

[makoman]

Yeah, the talent is fine, the players are mostly good. Get a couple starters, get back the hurt pitchers, and you're looking at a good chance at 90+ wins again.

 

I don't really like Hyde's in game moves, but recognize that at least the outlines of them are organizational decisions. And, they probably don't really matter a ton over the course of the season as far as W-L goes anyway.

 

The mental aspect seems problematic. The second half was so sloppy, time and time again we were talking about it on the board. Little things were not done, little mistakes were made. And it's not like this year was the only time something was questionable, they seemed to get tight once it mattered in 2022, 2023, and 2024. Is all that a player problem or a coaching problem, or just bad luck? I don't know, but you can't get rid of all the players. New leadership at least has a chance to change it. But I guess it's all moot now, so hopefully he can rally them next year.

[BSLChrisStoner]

They lacked whatever characteristic it is that gets a team to play clean consistently.  The mental mistakes, the wrong assumptions, the little things that go wrong, the wasted at bats...all of it has a common theme.  They didn't play sloppy last season, so maybe its something that can fluctuate.  But I think staying frosty all the time takes focus, and they haven't done that.

 

I don't think that's the only concern.  The chokes or limps to the finish line each of the last three years are a different aspect of the mental side of the game, and that's something I'm worried about, too. 

 

The talent level is the thing I'm least worried about.  Still work to go there to fill out the roster and would like to add a bit up top especially pitching, but it'll be a strong roster for the next few years at least.  Strong roster isn't enough to get where I wanna go.

 

I respect that I'm alone or in the minority here, but It's not anything imo. 

25% of the playoff roster wasn't on the roster Sept. 14th. 

Probably what.... 55 guys wore an Orioles uniform this year? 
(So when talking about culture, when talking about who was making miscues etc... we have to drill down and say who imo.)

 

When the Orioles were relatively healthy, they played well. 
IMO they weren't playing at a 100 win clip into July because there was great leadership, chemistry, etc... they played well because most nights they were more talented than the opposition.

At some point there was a cumulative effect with the injuries, and team performance suffered. 
Talent matters most, and for large swaths of the 2nd half, the everyday roster wasn't anymore talented than most.
And when one of the supposed two best players goes into a prolonged slump, it became further exacerbated.
And then the two heralded rookies (Holliday in particular, as Mayo didn't really play that much) just didn't perform well enough.

 

The guys that were wearing the O's uniform just weren't hitting, pitching, or fielding well enough... but it also wasn't a representation of a healthy O's roster. 

 

Then they got to the post-season and didn't perform for 2 games. 

 

We know it can take two months for offensive numbers to normalize...  but we're going to make sweeping generalizations of the offense not performing because it's emotional. 

 

The RISP numbers sucked all year.
The offensive was slugging dependent, but 4th overall in runs over 162 games tells you more about the offense than 1 run in two playoff games imo.

 

 

The mental mistakes, wasted abs...   I don't see a common theme. 
I'll be judged as naive or obtuse, but I feel its reading into things. 

 

 

 

Get me 1 quality starting pitcher and try again. 
If they stay healthy, they'll be as good as anyone. 

[Mackus]

I don't think its a toxic locker room, but I think they lack the leadership - management and player - that helps you stay sharp day in and day out.  It's hard.  I don't think they're way behind every other team, but I do think they're behind the best teams or behind a team that happens to be dialed in at any given time.  Maybe we have a strong year and happen to dial in next postseason, don't think that's impossible.  But would rather have a team that I expect to be dialed in than a team searching for it.  

 

We'll get the team we'll get.  Don't think a big roster overhaul was likely or wise, but do think that a manager and coaching staff overhaul would've helped.  Would've been very excited to see these same players reacting to a new voice, plus with the knowledge that their failings in the past got the previous group fired.  Maybe it'll develop anyway as they get older, the core is still all in their early to mid 20s, perhaps with some different veteran players in the mix.

[BSLRoseKatz]

This tweet feels relevant to any discussion of the team culture lol

 

"Life is a never-ending succession of NFL teams adding ping pong tables w/stories about how they're finally coming together as a family and enjoying each other's company, and NFL teams removing ping pong tables w/stories about how they're finally taking football seriously."