520 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

No. something is way off here.

Meant to say Elias, not Hyde. Big boy offseason for Mikey Boy. Wherever Mike B is, shout out to you hope things are well, just wait and see how I can go in on my boytoy if he sits on his hands this offseason

[mdrunning]

Gunnar was a cool 0/7 with 4 K’s. Well done man. Well done. These guys are mid.

I'm not ready to lower the boom on Gunnar. He had two bad offensive games on the big stage, to be sure, but last year wasn't he 6-for-12 or something in the ALDS? Even the biggest stars can flame out at times in the postseason. (Brooks hit .053 in the '69 Series.) What I want from Gunnar is to work on his fielding and cut down on the errors.

[BSLRoseKatz]

I was thinking about you in the 8th-9th.

In many ways, this fate feels like karma for intentionally losing so many games.

I’m prepared for how unpopular an opinion this will be. Whatever.

 

I don't know if it's karma but it does feel like you need to win a WS to justify the cynicism of doing that and if they don't win a WS with the Adley/Gunnar/Holliday/etc core I think it's a failure regardless of how much sustained regular season winning it brings

[BSLRoseKatz]

I'm not ready to lower the boom on Gunnar. He had two bad offensive games on the big stage, to be sure, but last year wasn't he 6-for-12 or something in the ALDS? Even the biggest stars can flame out at times in the postseason. (Brooks hit .053 in the '69 Series.) What I want from Gunnar is to work on his fielding and cut down on the errors.

 

Cedric was terrible in the ALDS last year and was our best hitter for this year too, it's 5-game samples in a sport where 5-game samples are normally given much less weight lol

[BaltBird 24]

Gunnar was a cool 0/7 with 4 K’s. Well done man. Well done. These guys are mid.

I can't get on Gunnar too bad. He had a bad 2 games. He balled out last post season. 2 bad games happen.

[NewMarketSean]

Maybe they need to play pepper more.

[Mackus]

I can't get on Gunnar too bad. He had a bad 2 games. He balled out last post season. 2 bad games happen.

 

Not even that bad, IMO.  His at bats weren't terrible even when he K'd or had bad results.  Still got on base a couple times.  He made several tough plays.  He didn't look any different to me than he had all year, which is an outstanding player.  Think people are losing their minds, which is understandable right now.  Everyone will come back to Gunnar.  I'm not certain that he's a 900 OPS, MVP-candidate every year.  But I think he's more likely to be that than just a good, borderline All-Star everyday player.

[Ravens2006]

2 game samples are irrelevant to me. What's disappointing is that it was more or less a continuation of 3 months where basically the entire order regressed. Something is off about that. My eyes told me the 23 team collectively had better at bats. Working counts more, not chasing badly out of the zone, etc.

I went to the first game of the Cubs series when Kremer started and had no control. I was sort of struck by how much they chased bad pitches, especially breaking balls or offspeed in or near the dirt. When Kremer made a decent pitch to maybe get out of a jam, they made an E. The whole game seemed "off". And it felt like their teamwide downturn started that night. So I'll take the blame. I just don't remember thinking "Throw these guys breaking balls in the dirt and they'll never get a hit" before right around that Cubs series. Since then, that's about all I would have thrown them if I was an opposing pitcher.

If Hays was causing clubhouse drama, trading him away certainly didn't help "fix" the on-field results...

[Slidemaster]

2 game samples are irrelevant to me. What's disappointing is that it was more or less a continuation of 3 months where basically the entire order regressed. Something is off about that. My eyes told me the 23 team collectively had better at bats. Working counts more, not chasing badly out of the zone, etc.

I went to the first game of the Cubs series when Kremer started and had no control. I was sort of struck by how much they chased bad pitches, especially breaking balls or offspeed in or near the dirt. When Kremer made a decent pitch to maybe get out of a jam, they made an E. The whole game seemed "off". And it felt like their teamwide downturn started that night. So I'll take the blame. I just don't remember thinking "Throw these guys breaking balls in the dirt and they'll never get a hit" before right around that Cubs series. Since then, that's about all I would have thrown them if I was an opposing pitcher.

If Hays was causing clubhouse drama, trading him away certainly didn't help "fix" the on-field results...

Makes me wonder if it made it worse. Maybe he had friends in the clubhouse who might have been upset and maintained a bad attitude. I remember there being a comment from someone (I forget who) about how they didn't make decisions about who played and who didn't. I can't help but wonder if maybe some of the older guys felt like the rookies hadn't earned the PT they were given, and were upset that some of the older players were being pushed out. It's hard enough being a rookie with high expectations. Being one in a hostile clubhouse is harder still.

[makoman]

None of us knows anything about the clubhouse, but Hays certainly earned his loss of playing time. And it's not like we held him back, he was worse on the Phillies. I really hope it wasn't that. But if it was, that again goes to lack of leadership, both from the players and coaches.

[Mackus]

I doubt that it's dislike amongst the players that is the issue.  I think its more of a lack of accountability and no small group to lead everyone in the way that leads to the type of laser focus that can help avoid these brutal stretches of poor play with sprinkled in rallies and homers.  Gunnar, Adley, Westburg, Bradish and Rodriguez are more talented than Adam, Nick, Hardy, Wieters, and Tillman but those other guys were able to unite everyone to buy in to what Buck was selling. 

 

I've only got guesses as to where the issue is within this current team, but I think Hyde is not able to develop the player leadership that we need to develop (beyond my issues with him as a tactician).  You can't fire all the players.  Can't even really get rid of a big batch of them.  I don't think the solution is some amazing veteran, though maybe it is since last year's team didn't have these issues but did have Gibson and Frazier who were mediocre at best players but perhaps had some influence over the younger guys.  I don't know exactly how to nurture leadership from whomever in our young core has the innate ability, but I think that's the solution.  We need an increase in professionalism moreso than talent.  Maybe that increase comes externally, but I think an internal improvement is going to be necessary.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Have we traded Adley yet

[makoman]

I doubt that it's dislike amongst the players that is the issue.  I think its more of a lack of accountability and no small group to lead everyone in the way that leads to the type of laser focus that can help avoid these brutal stretches of poor play with sprinkled in rallies and homers.  Gunnar, Adley, Westburg, Bradish and Rodriguez are more talented than Adam, Nick, Hardy, Wieters, and Tillman but those other guys were able to unite everyone to buy in to what Buck was selling. 

 

I've only got guesses as to where the issue is within this current team, but I think Hyde is not able to develop the player leadership that we need to develop (beyond my issues with him as a tactician).  You can't fire all the players.  Can't even really get rid of a big batch of them.  I don't think the solution is some amazing veteran, though maybe it is since last year's team didn't have these issues but did have Gibson and Frazier who were mediocre at best players but perhaps had some influence over the younger guys.  I don't know exactly how to nurture leadership from whomever in our young core has the innate ability, but I think that's the solution.  We need an increase in professionalism moreso than talent.  Maybe that increase comes externally, but I think an internal improvement is going to be necessary.

Yeah I have no idea who the leaders were on this team. There's no Adam Jones (though he wasn't the same either in 2009 of course) Mullins and Tony were the only ones left to predate Hyde I think, and Mullins seemed to have it a little, but I didn't really get the leader vibe from either. Gunnar is the best player, and Adley is the catcher and also should be one of the best, so you'd look there, but I just didn't feel the leader vibe with them either. Maybe Burnes was a little but he was always a clear mercenary too so I think that takes away from it. Maybe Hays was it and we lost some of that. 

 

Again, I feel like this is somewhat a coaching issue. I feel like Buck pushed Adam into being a leader, the others you mention too.

 

Of course as someone looking from the outside I could have no clue what I'm talking about.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Here's Britt being honest and unmerciful.

 

 

BALTIMORE — The backslapping of goodbyes in the Baltimore Orioles clubhouse was deafening, the official obituary for a team that has been playing dead for months.

 

This much is clear: The honeymoon is over.

 

Ghiroli: The Orioles’ honeymoon is over, and their front office needs to find answers - The Athletic (nytimes.com)

[Slidemaster]

I doubt that it's dislike amongst the players that is the issue. I think its more of a lack of accountability and no small group to lead everyone in the way that leads to the type of laser focus that can help avoid these brutal stretches of poor play with sprinkled in rallies and homers. Gunnar, Adley, Westburg, Bradish and Rodriguez are more talented than Adam, Nick, Hardy, Wieters, and Tillman but those other guys were able to unite everyone to buy in to what Buck was selling.

I've only got guesses as to where the issue is within this current team, but I think Hyde is not able to develop the player leadership that we need to develop (beyond my issues with him as a tactician). You can't fire all the players. Can't even really get rid of a big batch of them. I don't think the solution is some amazing veteran, though maybe it is since last year's team didn't have these issues but did have Gibson and Frazier who were mediocre at best players but perhaps had some influence over the younger guys. I don't know exactly how to nurture leadership from whomever in our young core has the innate ability, but I think that's the solution. We need an increase in professionalism moreso than talent. Maybe that increase comes externally, but I think an internal improvement is going to be necessary.

I think all of this makes me appreciate who Adam Jones was to this franchise all the more. We have nobody like that right now.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Banner article last night noted how Adley, McCann, and Mountcastle were walking around to each locker and giving hugs and handshakes. Adley was emotional. I suspect these guys liked each other and got along well. I personally think they just lacked an edge

[Mackus]

They certainly won't lack for options on the position player side.  They could do basically nothing and have an ok-looking roster with Kjerstad, Holliday, and Mayo stepping into roles.  That could be really good or even great or could be a disaster if none of them take steps forward, Rutschman continues to flounder, and maybe someone like Mullins plays more like his struggling version than his successful version.

 

Santander could be resigned or could let him walk.  If you let him walk, the most similar bats to him on the market are Pete Alonso and Teoscar Hernandez.  Tyler O'Neill if you're looking less expensive and want a RH bat for balance.  I'd rather resign Tony than any of them (also think Alonso will be a good bit more expensive than the outfielders), but there are options.  Soto is a pipe dream, but damn wouldn't that be a jolt and show that new ownership is different? 

 

You could lead a trade offer for Crochet with Holliday and then go sign Alex Bregman to play 3B and slide Westburg to 2B.  Bregman isn't the offensive player he used to be, but his contract will reflect that and he's still solid and might be a good solution to the clubhouse troubles we've been mentioning.  Or could sign someone like Kim to play 2B and keep Westburg at 3B.  Or could even use Mateo/Urias just like last year and still be able to dangle Holliday.

 

Deep SP class and could get deeper depending on some opt-out choices.

 

Whatever they decide to do is because that's what they've chosen.  They won't be backed into bad options due to lack of possibilities.

[dude]

Not pulling quotes from R2006, slide and mako above this one too....

 

 I don't know exactly how to nurture leadership from whomever in our young core has the innate ability, but I think that's the solution.  

 

....all of this deserves it's own thread and not get buried in 157 pages of ridiculous takes.

 

You don't have to be in the clubhouse to understand human nature. When you find it, lean into it.  If you can't do that, DO NOT DO what they did.  This was always the biggest risk with this team.  I wish I could sell the land on these islands.

 

For the quote above, I think this is generally the right approach for 2025.  It's more than that.  You have to figure out some other pieces but this is the only thing Elias has to do this offseason.  He's the only one that can do it.  He hasn't shown that tool-set yet (has shown others) so we'll see.

[You Play to Win the Game]

The goodwill is gone. The vibes in Birdland were through the roof coming off multiple intentionally horrific seasons to restock the farm. Something not all of us approved of, but we all saw the results of: the return of competent baseball to Baltimore. Combine that, with the exit of the Angelos family, and we were ready to throw a parade. 

 

Now, we're coming off our 2nd straight sweep in the playoffs, haven't won a playoff game since 2014 (10 straight losses in the playoffs), and no one is happy with merely competent baseball. We shouldn't have to just be happy with competent baseball, either. That should always be the minimum expectation. The actual expectation has to be a lot bigger than this, and if substantial changes aren't made this off-season, I anticipate the buzz coming into 2025 being quite low.

 

To see thousands of unsold seats for a playoff game last night was depressing. That's on the entire organization. Not the fans. I guess they want to be the Rays in more ways than one.

[dude]

I don't know if it's karma but it does feel like you need to win a WS to justify the cynicism of doing that and if they don't win a WS with the Adley/Gunnar/Holliday/etc core I think it's a failure regardless of how much sustained regular season winning it brings

 

Intentionally losing generated a core of Kjerstad, Coswer and Holliday.  Those are the guys that have to justify throwing away seasons of opportunity.