Photo

CBS Sports: Holliday has struggled so far, here are three reasons to believe


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#1 hallas

hallas

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,578 posts
  • LocationDaniel Larusso's hometown

Posted 17 April 2024 - 10:33 PM

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?



#2 CantonJester

CantonJester

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,772 posts

Posted 17 April 2024 - 10:36 PM

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?

 

There's a wide berth between 'at-the-moment-Jackson Holliday' and him not playing great in July

 

But to answer your question? Hell no. 

 

You play service games with Jackson sooner than later in order to right the ship. 


  • makoman likes this

#3 mweb08

mweb08

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 30,401 posts
  • LocationRidgely's Delight

Posted 18 April 2024 - 06:00 AM

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?


I think he should only be demoted if it's actually warranted. So possibly in the near future, but probably not once he's settled in and producing at least at a reasonable level.
  • makoman likes this

#4 makoman

makoman

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,480 posts

Posted 18 April 2024 - 08:19 AM

Yeah I agree, we are past the point of service time games. Like Grayson and Cowser last year, he should be demoted if warranted for development and the good of the MLB team, an extra year of control is a bonus. 


  • BobPhelan likes this

#5 BSLChrisStoner

BSLChrisStoner

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 156,520 posts

Posted 19 April 2024 - 06:04 AM

CBS Sports: Holliday has struggled so far, here are three reasons to believe 

https://www.cbssport...ioles-prospect/



#6 dude

dude

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,862 posts
  • LocationColumbus, GA

Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:28 AM

I haven't commented on Holliday since he got called up, so I'll throw something in here.

 

I don't care.  My opinion hasn't changed.  

 

1) Whenever you make the call, it has consequences beyond this year.  This is still the only guaranteed thing in the entire situation.

 

2) I don't think you over-react to small samples....so I'm not going to with him.   Although it's laughable how quiet some are today given positions they were willing to take 5-8 games into the season on other players.

 

3A) Baseball is still hard.  Turner, Langford and Chourio are all OPSing the .600s.  Merrill is in the .800s.  That will change in every direction because we aren't out of April yet.  The notion that everyone is ready to be their eventual best with very little experience in the Game flys in the face of Baseball history.  Holliday is the currently the (by far) fastest high school player promoted to the Majors.

 

3B) ...related...this article (and others) want to try and compare slow starts by others to this slow start.  It's still absurdly out of context with age and experience.

 

4) The hyper-promotion is still comical to me.  mlb.com has had more Holliday headlines than he has hits.  When Mullins hits his the walk-off....they choose a picture where the only prominent player in the angle is Holliday. 

 

5) Holliday will be fine.  He'll hit.  He'll have some big hits.  Cool.

 

My general opinion is once you make the move, you stick with the move....which is why I want to err on the side of more ready (especially for a player that will give you nothing back in service) than less ready.  Every player (especially someone with Holliday's lack of experience) is going to take time to adjust.  I think you have to roll with him until just short of breaking his rookie status.  That's time and PAs.  That's kind of the decision point to send him back down, but that's only the blackhole scenario.  If he picks it up at all, then you just stay with it and live with whatever downstream consequences there are.  Oh well.


  • You Play to Win the Game, BobPhelan and tennOsfan like this

#7 hallas

hallas

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,578 posts
  • LocationDaniel Larusso's hometown

Posted 20 April 2024 - 04:18 PM

How many PAs do you give him? His contact rate and K rate are comically bad right now, and K rate becomes significant in about 60 PAs.

#8 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,670 posts

Posted 20 April 2024 - 04:38 PM


How many PAs do you give him? His contact rate and K rate are comically bad right now, and K rate becomes significant in about 60 PAs.

I was an advocate of giving him real time up here but we are getting close to making a call with just how bad it has been for him. Hes been completely and totally overmatched. Maybe another 5 -10 games worth of PAs.

#9 BaltBird 24

BaltBird 24

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,057 posts

Posted 20 April 2024 - 04:59 PM

It's one thing to struggle. A .108 OPS and striking out around 60% of the time is next level struggle. Apparently his defense has been ranked fairly high, but you can tell the arm is a bit of a weakness.

#10 Mackus

Mackus

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 61,149 posts

Posted 20 April 2024 - 06:56 PM


I was an advocate of giving him real time up here but we are getting close to making a call with just how bad it has been for him. Hes been completely and totally overmatched. Maybe another 5 -10 games worth of PAs.


Yeah you move a lot faster if it remains a complete zero. That's different than even atrocious, pitcher-level hitting. I'd keep him as long as he's progressing. Progress over next week might look like 3/21, but it'd be enough to earn another week from me. It's a low bar. But he's well below that very low bar so far so I can't be completely confident he'll clear it.

#11 85Knight

85Knight

    MVP

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,434 posts

Posted 21 April 2024 - 12:35 AM

Hearing the numbers of some of the recent phenoms it's not too late to turn it around. 1 for 27 is not unheard of at the start of a mlb career. A 3 for 4 day will change everything.

#12 Slidemaster

Slidemaster

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,200 posts

Posted 21 April 2024 - 12:14 PM

Hearing the numbers of some of the recent phenoms it's not too late to turn it around. 1 for 27 is not unheard of at the start of a mlb career. A 3 for 4 day will change everything.


At this point I'm jumping for joy if he puts the ball in play 3 out of 4 times.

I was a big advocate of bringing him up because he really appeared to have nothing left to prove in the minors, but the level.of futility he's shown has been undeniable. If he still looks this way in the middle of next week it's time for him to go down and remember how to play.

#13 85Knight

85Knight

    MVP

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,434 posts

Posted 21 April 2024 - 12:36 PM

At this point I'm jumping for joy if he puts the ball in play 3 out of 4 times.

I was a big advocate of bringing him up because he really appeared to have nothing left to prove in the minors, but the level.of futility he's shown has been undeniable. If he still looks this way in the middle of next week it's time for him to go down and remember how to play.


You have to worry about his mental state but Hyde said he was fine. His dad is probably a big help in that area. That would be the only reason to send him down as the consensus still is he won't get any better in the minors. I said it before he should swing early before he gets down in the count.

#14 cprenegade

cprenegade

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,810 posts

Posted 21 April 2024 - 08:47 PM

You have to worry about his mental state but Hyde said he was fine. His dad is probably a big help in that area. That would be the only reason to send him down as the consensus still is he won't get any better in the minors. I said it before he should swing early before he gets down in the count.

 

That would be my concern.  Could running him out there day after day with no progress break his confidence?  Like you said, his family pedigree probably helps a lot with that.  But he has looked overmatched.  1 for 27 with 1 walk and 15 strikeouts is really bad.   Sending Cowser back down last year obviously helped him, but maybe the wall he needs to master right now for Holliday is between the highest level of the minors and the major league level.  If that's true, sending him down won't do much for him.  

 

It's a tough situation.  This may be an oversimplification, but it's like playing a video game like Tetris where there are multiple levels and speeds.  You might master the slower levels and get trashed on the higher level, but if you keep playing at the lower level there is no way you will improve.  You gotta just keep banging at the faster speed to get better.  

 

As long as the team is winning and can carry him, it's ok.  But this is the level where winning trumps everything.  You can't let him be a rally killer forever.  


  • tennOsfan likes this

#15 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,670 posts

Posted 21 April 2024 - 08:55 PM

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

#16 dude

dude

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,862 posts
  • LocationColumbus, GA

Posted 21 April 2024 - 09:22 PM

.....l, but if you keep playing at the lower level there is no way you will improve.  

 

I'm not piling on the results because the results will be different at some point...but he hasn't spent almost any time - compared to every other MLB player - at the 'lower level'.

 

There's been this bizarre narrative that he's learned everything he can possibly learn in ONE SEASON of professional baseball and over half of it was at A/A+..

 

Personally, I don't care that he gets to learn at the ML level.  My opinion is it has been wildly forced for some reason, but if you want to do it, fine....but this comes at some consequence and that's the bad part for the Orioles.


  • BaltBird 24 and mdrunning like this

#17 BSLSteveBirrer

BSLSteveBirrer

    Soccer Analyst

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,537 posts
  • LocationMS and ID

Posted 22 April 2024 - 07:35 AM

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

Disagree with this or at least it depends on what you mean by "looked." To me Holliday still looks like a young and struggling MLB player but he does look like a baseball player. Last year I did not think Cowser looked anything close to a MLB player. Cowser's stats early were bad but surely better than what Holiday has shown. But from a pure how do they look standpoint I think Holliday in April 2024 "looked" more baseball player than Cowser in 2023.  Cowser defensively looked like he'd never seen the outfield.



#18 weird-O

weird-O

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,232 posts
  • LocationI'm here from downtown, I'm here from Mitch and Murray.

Posted 22 April 2024 - 07:40 AM

I've been told that if they send him down, it will wreck his confidence. And we can't have that.


Good news! I saw a dog today.


#19 TwentyThirtyFive

TwentyThirtyFive

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,670 posts

Posted 24 April 2024 - 11:28 AM

Jordan Walker was just demoted by St Louis after 58 ABs. He had a very solid 1st year last year. Now, the argument may be well St Louis is losing they cant afford to let him work through it up here. The Os have a big series against the Yanks next week. I dont want the complete zero that Holliday has been playing in that series as things stand today. He better have a monster series vs Oak



#20 DuffMan

DuffMan

    HOF

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,776 posts
  • LocationLinthicum, MD

Posted 24 April 2024 - 11:33 AM

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

Cowser's PT was also more hit or miss.  A game here, another there, next few on the bench then an AB late in a game.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Our Sponsors


 width=