44 replies to this topic

[hallas]

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?

[CantonJester]

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?

 

There's a wide berth between 'at-the-moment-Jackson Holliday' and him not playing great in July. 

 

But to answer your question? Hell no. 

 

You play service games with Jackson sooner than later in order to right the ship. 

[mweb08]

Would you play service time games with Jackson in July if he's not playing great and Colton is on track for ROY?

I think he should only be demoted if it's actually warranted. So possibly in the near future, but probably not once he's settled in and producing at least at a reasonable level.

[makoman]

Yeah I agree, we are past the point of service time games. Like Grayson and Cowser last year, he should be demoted if warranted for development and the good of the MLB team, an extra year of control is a bonus. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

CBS Sports: Holliday has struggled so far, here are three reasons to believe 

https://www.cbssport...ioles-prospect/

[dude]

I haven't commented on Holliday since he got called up, so I'll throw something in here.

 

I don't care.  My opinion hasn't changed.  

 

1) Whenever you make the call, it has consequences beyond this year.  This is still the only guaranteed thing in the entire situation.

 

2) I don't think you over-react to small samples....so I'm not going to with him.   Although it's laughable how quiet some are today given positions they were willing to take 5-8 games into the season on other players.

 

3A) Baseball is still hard.  Turner, Langford and Chourio are all OPSing the .600s.  Merrill is in the .800s.  That will change in every direction because we aren't out of April yet.  The notion that everyone is ready to be their eventual best with very little experience in the Game flys in the face of Baseball history.  Holliday is the currently the (by far) fastest high school player promoted to the Majors.

 

3B) ...related...this article (and others) want to try and compare slow starts by others to this slow start.  It's still absurdly out of context with age and experience.

 

4) The hyper-promotion is still comical to me.  mlb.com has had more Holliday headlines than he has hits.  When Mullins hits his the walk-off....they choose a picture where the only prominent player in the angle is Holliday. 

 

5) Holliday will be fine.  He'll hit.  He'll have some big hits.  Cool.

 

My general opinion is once you make the move, you stick with the move....which is why I want to err on the side of more ready (especially for a player that will give you nothing back in service) than less ready.  Every player (especially someone with Holliday's lack of experience) is going to take time to adjust.  I think you have to roll with him until just short of breaking his rookie status.  That's time and PAs.  That's kind of the decision point to send him back down, but that's only the blackhole scenario.  If he picks it up at all, then you just stay with it and live with whatever downstream consequences there are.  Oh well.

[hallas]

How many PAs do you give him? His contact rate and K rate are comically bad right now, and K rate becomes significant in about 60 PAs.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

How many PAs do you give him? His contact rate and K rate are comically bad right now, and K rate becomes significant in about 60 PAs.

I was an advocate of giving him real time up here but we are getting close to making a call with just how bad it has been for him. Hes been completely and totally overmatched. Maybe another 5 -10 games worth of PAs.

[BaltBird 24]

It's one thing to struggle. A .108 OPS and striking out around 60% of the time is next level struggle. Apparently his defense has been ranked fairly high, but you can tell the arm is a bit of a weakness.

[Mackus]

I was an advocate of giving him real time up here but we are getting close to making a call with just how bad it has been for him. Hes been completely and totally overmatched. Maybe another 5 -10 games worth of PAs.

Yeah you move a lot faster if it remains a complete zero. That's different than even atrocious, pitcher-level hitting. I'd keep him as long as he's progressing. Progress over next week might look like 3/21, but it'd be enough to earn another week from me. It's a low bar. But he's well below that very low bar so far so I can't be completely confident he'll clear it.

[85Knight]

Hearing the numbers of some of the recent phenoms it's not too late to turn it around. 1 for 27 is not unheard of at the start of a mlb career. A 3 for 4 day will change everything.

[Slidemaster]

Hearing the numbers of some of the recent phenoms it's not too late to turn it around. 1 for 27 is not unheard of at the start of a mlb career. A 3 for 4 day will change everything.

At this point I'm jumping for joy if he puts the ball in play 3 out of 4 times.

I was a big advocate of bringing him up because he really appeared to have nothing left to prove in the minors, but the level.of futility he's shown has been undeniable. If he still looks this way in the middle of next week it's time for him to go down and remember how to play.

[85Knight]

At this point I'm jumping for joy if he puts the ball in play 3 out of 4 times.

I was a big advocate of bringing him up because he really appeared to have nothing left to prove in the minors, but the level.of futility he's shown has been undeniable. If he still looks this way in the middle of next week it's time for him to go down and remember how to play.

You have to worry about his mental state but Hyde said he was fine. His dad is probably a big help in that area. That would be the only reason to send him down as the consensus still is he won't get any better in the minors. I said it before he should swing early before he gets down in the count.

[cprenegade]

You have to worry about his mental state but Hyde said he was fine. His dad is probably a big help in that area. That would be the only reason to send him down as the consensus still is he won't get any better in the minors. I said it before he should swing early before he gets down in the count.

 

That would be my concern.  Could running him out there day after day with no progress break his confidence?  Like you said, his family pedigree probably helps a lot with that.  But he has looked overmatched.  1 for 27 with 1 walk and 15 strikeouts is really bad.   Sending Cowser back down last year obviously helped him, but maybe the wall he needs to master right now for Holliday is between the highest level of the minors and the major league level.  If that's true, sending him down won't do much for him.  

 

It's a tough situation.  This may be an oversimplification, but it's like playing a video game like Tetris where there are multiple levels and speeds.  You might master the slower levels and get trashed on the higher level, but if you keep playing at the lower level there is no way you will improve.  You gotta just keep banging at the faster speed to get better.  

 

As long as the team is winning and can carry him, it's ok.  But this is the level where winning trumps everything.  You can't let him be a rally killer forever.  

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

[dude]

.....l, but if you keep playing at the lower level there is no way you will improve.  

 

I'm not piling on the results because the results will be different at some point...but he hasn't spent almost any time - compared to every other MLB player - at the 'lower level'.

 

There's been this bizarre narrative that he's learned everything he can possibly learn in ONE SEASON of professional baseball and over half of it was at A/A+..

 

Personally, I don't care that he gets to learn at the ML level.  My opinion is it has been wildly forced for some reason, but if you want to do it, fine....but this comes at some consequence and that's the bad part for the Orioles.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

Disagree with this or at least it depends on what you mean by "looked." To me Holliday still looks like a young and struggling MLB player but he does look like a baseball player. Last year I did not think Cowser looked anything close to a MLB player. Cowser's stats early were bad but surely better than what Holiday has shown. But from a pure how do they look standpoint I think Holliday in April 2024 "looked" more baseball player than Cowser in 2023.  Cowser defensively looked like he'd never seen the outfield.

[weird-O]

I've been told that if they send him down, it will wreck his confidence. And we can't have that.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Jordan Walker was just demoted by St Louis after 58 ABs. He had a very solid 1st year last year. Now, the argument may be well St Louis is losing they cant afford to let him work through it up here. The Os have a big series against the Yanks next week. I dont want the complete zero that Holliday has been playing in that series as things stand today. He better have a monster series vs Oak

[DuffMan]

Cowser got 77 PA last year before being sent down. Jackson is at 32 right now but IMO as bad as Cowser looked last year he still looked better than Jackson has. Cowser's '23 BB rate was 17% and the K rate was 28%. Coming into today Jackson was at 3.8% BB and 53% K rates. Thats surely been the worst hitter in baseball over a players last 32 PAs. Id be surprised if the next closest slump is close when you add in the low BB rate and high K rate on top of the 1 for 30

Cowser's PT was also more hit or miss.  A game here, another there, next few on the bench then an AB late in a game.