80 replies to this topic

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I have to be gone for a week, but later I want to give you a chance build your case.  Take the week to order your Acme rockets and whatever else you think you need.

 

I'm going to ask you to defend the statement you've (several times now) postured that I want Holliday to not succeed very much because you think it undermines my position on rebuilding.  Questions will look something like...

 

1) Is Jackson Holliday required to win.

2) Does Jackson Holliday (assume any level of performance) justify intentionally losing.

3) When Jackson Holliday leaves, do we have to intentionally lose again to get the next ''Jackson Holiday"?

 

Back later.

This is such a stupid position. You ask all the wrong questions.

is Holliday required to win? Of course not. And you can say the same thing about every player on the roster. The question should be is the team better with Holliday on the roster. And most think the answer to that is hell yes.

 

As to #2 and 3 above. Can you just get over that nonsense. Please. They did what they did. You don't like it. Everybody on the planet knows that by now. 

 

Here's what you can't argue. They did what they did. They have built a winning club that looks to be a contender for the next handful of years. Who give a flying eff how they got there? We are here. Enjoy the ride.

[Slidemaster]

MLB.com poking a little fun at the Orioles RE: Holliday in their first power rankings.

5) Orioles (previously: 3). An early warning sign for the Orioles’ vaunted young offense? They are currently ranked 29th in on-base percentage, ahead of only the White Sox. It’s in large part the young infielders off to slow starts: Jordan Westburg and Gunnar Henderson are a combined 13-for-65 so far. Just out of curiosity, let’s check and see how Jackson Holliday is doing down in Triple-A Norfolk … oh, look, he’s got a .490 OBP down there, how about that?

[jamesdean]

MLB.com poking a little fun at the Orioles RE: Holliday in their first power rankings.
 

I'm pretty sure we're all anxious to get Holliday up here and in the line-up but I would temper the expectations of him putting up those kind of numbers against major league pitching.  That said, it would be hard to imagine him doing any worse, though. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I'm pretty sure we're all anxious to get Holliday up here and in the line-up but I would temper the expectations of him putting up those kind of numbers against major league pitching.  That said, it would be hard to imagine him doing any worse, though. 

This is the point. It isn't is he going to have an OPS over .850 etc etc etc. It whether you think he is better than players currently on the roster. If some don't then fine. I do.

[makoman]

Yes, we should replace Gunnar with Holliday, that’s a reasonable point to make. Come on MLB, Urias is right there.

[Slidemaster]

Yes, we should replace Gunnar with Holliday, that’s a reasonable point to make. Come on MLB, Urias is right there.

Who suggested replacing Gunnar?

Edit: I see what you were referring to. I didn't quite take it that way.

[Slidemaster]

I'm pretty sure we're all anxious to get Holliday up here and in the line-up but I would temper the expectations of him putting up those kind of numbers against major league pitching. That said, it would be hard to imagine him doing any worse, though.

I feel confident that Holliday can OPS at about .760-.820 at the MLB level.

[Slidemaster]

Jackson coming up!

[85Knight]

I think this is an admission that he should have never been sent down.

[BobPhelan]

I think this is an admission that he should have never been sent down.

I actually think this was the plan all along.

[BSLMikeLowe]

If that was the plan then its purpose makes no sense looking from the outside.

 

If they aren't doing the service time manipulation, then there was no need to send him down for just 10 games. It should certainly have come as no surprise that Urias is nothing more than someone who can occasionally give Holliday/Henderson a day off against LHP, and that the guy Holliday is replacing on the roster was completely useless from the get go. For a franchise that used to be run by the biggest cheapskate in the league (it feels so good to say that  "used to" part btw) flushing whatever they owe Kemp down the toilet this way sure seems like insanity.

[BobPhelan]

If that was the plan then its purpose makes no sense looking from the outside.

If they aren't doing the service time manipulation, then there was no need to send him down for just 10 games. It should certainly have come as no surprise that Urias is nothing more than someone who can occasionally give Holliday/Henderson a day off against LHP, and that the guy Holliday is replacing on the roster was completely useless from the get go. For a franchise that used to be run by the biggest cheapskate in the league (it feels so good to say that "used to" part btw) flushing whatever they owe Kemp down the toilet this way sure seems like insanity.

Giving him an extended “spring training” to play second base and face some lefties with less pressure while the ML team was set to see a bunch of LHP early. ROY pick helped us get Burnes, I think they value the chance at getting it again. Two shots at it with Cowser and Holliday.

[hallas]

If that was the plan then its purpose makes no sense looking from the outside.

If they aren't doing the service time manipulation, then there was no need to send him down for just 10 games. It should certainly have come as no surprise that Urias is nothing more than someone who can occasionally give Holliday/Henderson a day off against LHP, and that the guy Holliday is replacing on the roster was completely useless from the get go. For a franchise that used to be run by the biggest cheapskate in the league (it feels so good to say that "used to" part btw) flushing whatever they owe Kemp down the toilet this way sure seems like insanity.

Ok but it wasn’t a foregone conclusion that he'd be OPSing 1.079 in AAA and strike out like 3 times in 50 PAs. Do you think they would have called him up if he wasn't absolutely crushing AAA pitching?

And it's a small sample size but batted ball data and strikeout rates stabilize in less than 100 ABs so they got a meaningful data set.

[85Knight]

Giving him an extended “spring training” to play second base and face some lefties with less pressure while the ML team was set to see a bunch of LHP early. ROY pick helped us get Burnes, I think they value the chance at getting it again. Two shots at it with Cowser and Holliday.

10 minor league games didn't do much for his development. He has shown that if you move him up he will figure it out and so far at an extremely fast rate. All they did was delay his development by 10 games until somebody stepped in and decided to abort the service time plan. If this was the plan from the beginning it wasn't well thought out but I doubt that that was the case.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I have and will continue to believe it was inexplicable decision-making, no changing my mind on that. But there's no proving they would have won any of the games they lost with Holliday in the lineup, so in the grand scheme it's not a big deal....though I reserve the right to change my mind on that if somehow the $1M they paid Tony Kemp for 10 PAs is the difference in the payroll that leads to them not making a meaningful addition at the trade deadline. Then it becomes sheer idiocy.

[Mackus]

10 minor league games didn't do much for his development. He has shown that if you move him up he will figure it out and so far at an extremely fast rate. All they did was delay his development by 10 games until somebody stepped in and decided to abort the service time plan. If this was the plan from the beginning it wasn't well thought out but I doubt that that was the case.

 

Agree.  I can't imagine this having been the plan from Day 1, there is little benefit to having delayed him two weeks but not the necessary sixteen days.  I do think they were constantly evaluating and changed their opinions on one or more of the factors they were considering when doing the overall trade study of full year with draft pick vs extra year without draft pick vs full year without draft pick.  That's good process, and there was an obvious minor deadline.  Its reasonable to have a different outcome on Opening Day than yesterday given the rules.  I still would've held him back, but I'm guessing I either value the 7th year of service more than they do, value the extra pick less than them, or am thinking his odds of a top-2 finish are lower than they do.  Or some combo of all 3. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Yeah they were constantly evaluating. One of the big factors they realized..... Urias is a hole as a reg

[85Knight]

Agree. I can't imagine this having been the plan from Day 1, there is little benefit to having delayed him two weeks but not the necessary sixteen days. I do think they were constantly evaluating and changed their opinions on one or more of the factors they were considering when doing the overall trade study of full year with draft pick vs extra year without draft pick vs full year without draft pick. That's good process, and there was an obvious minor deadline. Its reasonable to have a different outcome on Opening Day than yesterday given the rules. I still would've held him back, but I'm guessing I either value the 7th year of service more than they do, value the extra pick less than them, or am thinking his odds of a top-2 finish are lower than they do. Or some combo of all 3.

If the plan was for him to come back after 10 games I'm sure they would have found a cheaper option than giving Kemp a million dollars. I think the vision of the new ownership played a part in this move because this was a complete 180. Angelos said we weren't paying these guys and that we were gonna be more like the Rays. I think this ownership has a different vision and that gave Elias the impetus to switch course with Holliday. That's what makes sense to me but we'll never know what was said behind closed doors.

[Mackus]

If the plan was for him to come back after 10 games I'm sure they would have found a cheaper option than giving Kemp a million dollars.

 

They won't be paying Kemp $1M.  As soon as he signs elsewhere, that team will pay the prorated minimum of $740k and the O's will pay the balance.  I think Kemp likely was the cheaper option compared to Wong, but if they knew they were sure they'd only be needing a 2-week stopgap they'd have just kept Nevin or someone else who wouldn't have taken a guaranteed MLB salary.

[85Knight]

They won't be paying Kemp $1M. As soon as he signs elsewhere, that team will pay the prorated minimum of $740k and the O's will pay the balance. I think Kemp likely was the cheaper option compared to Wong, but if they knew they were sure they'd only be needing a 2-week stopgap they'd have just kept Nevin or someone else who wouldn't have taken a guaranteed MLB salary.

Ok. Yeah I think they would have stayed in house for 10 games.