50 replies to this topic

[Mike B]

You go get a better SP, move one or two of the current SP's to the bullpen and improve in both areas. 

I agree with this but the question is who goes to the pen.  It looks for now the first guy to the pen is Irvin, but he is a finesse pitcher and I am not sure how he will do there.

Grayson---he makes the most sense if he can conquer his first inning issues, but I keep thinking about how the Orioles did something similar with Kevin Gausman and I believe it hurt his development.

Kremer--He would probably tick up a notch or two on his fastball, but he has been really good the last 2 or 3 starts and I remember how good he was late last year.  I like him in the rotation.

Bradish--he is too good to tinker with.  Not him

Gibson---they will not move Gibson to the pen.

Wells---this is interesting.  He has done the leverage role before, granted on a team, that was just trying to get through a season.  His inning count is becoming a concern, but he has been our best starter not named Kyle Bradish.  Maybe, but only if Grayson Rodriquez locks down a starting spot or the Orioles make a trade for a good starter.

 

It is not an easy decision.

[Mackus]

I don't struggle that much with the rotation questions.  I'd still aggressively shop for a very good SP to add to the front of the rotation.  If everyone pitches well after that, I'll be able to manage that.  I'm not overly concerned about keeping people happy.  I am much more concerned about not making an addition and then possibly finding ourselves with only 3 or 4 guys who are healthy and effective.  

 

Another front-end arm would also allow for better matching up once the postseason begins.  Gotta get there, of course.

[Mike B]

I watched the end of the Mets and LAD game last night, and I think Dave Robertson of the Mets could help the Orioles BP issues.

[BobPhelan]

Ideal playoff rotation:

1. Trade acquisition
2. Bradish
3. Wells
4. Rodriguez/Means/Kremer/Gibson

Whoever doesn’t make the rotation out of those 4 goes to the bullpen or doesn’t make the playoff roster.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I'd be surprised to see them obtain a starter better than they have.

I think the focus needs to be on adding two quality relievers. 

[Mackus]

I'd be surprised to see them obtain a starter better than they have.

I think the focus needs to be on adding two quality relievers. 

 

There is no need to prioritize or have a narrow focus.  Plenty of bandwidth available to pursue both additions, and I think both are essential.  The relievers won't cost much, only a controllable SP would cost anyone we'd really hate to lose and a rental likely wouldn't.  Can definitely do everything, just a matter of will.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

We have the pieces to go after a hitter, SP, and several RPs. Dumb not to pursue it. Now maybe the right deal can't be had but should seriously be working this.

[BSLChrisStoner]

There is no need to prioritize or have a narrow focus.  Plenty of bandwidth available to pursue both additions, and I think both are essential.  The relievers won't cost much, only a controllable SP would cost anyone we'd really hate to lose and a rental likely wouldn't.  Can definitely do everything, just a matter of will.

It's not just a matter of will, it's also a matter of finding options. 

Most playoff series, you are going to go with 3 starters...   so as of today...  Wells, Bradish, Kremer. 

Can you find someone better than Kremer at the minimum? Possibly.  

 

Do you just want to find someone better than Gibson, Rodriguez, Irvin for the stretch run?  Probably obtainable, but how much better?

 

Do agree the O's have the system depth to obtain multiple players.
I'm just not sure they are going to be able to find a high end rotation option to slot-in in-front of Wells and Bradish, or be much better than Kremer, etc. 

If they can, great.

[Mike B]

We have the pieces to go after a hitter, SP, and several RPs. Dumb not to pursue it. Now maybe the right deal can't be had but should seriously be working this.

I think they should be prudent in the key prospects they trade, but I think 2 high leverage relievers are a must.  I go back and forth about spending top prospects for a rental starter.  There is a lot of talk about Dylan Cease on Twitter, but he is not having a great year and I am worried last year may have been an outlier.   

I think I would ride with the hitters we have.  I think we can get the job done with the current lineup.  That said, if a modern day version of Nelson Cruz, becomes available, then I am in.

[Mackus]

It's not just a matter of will, it's also a matter of finding options. 

Most playoff series, you are going to go with 3 starters...   so as of today...  Wells, Bradish, Kremer. 

Can you find someone better than Kremer at the minimum? Possibly.  

 

Do you just want to find someone better than Gibson, Rodriguez, Irvin for the stretch run?  Probably obtainable, but how much better?

 

Do agree the O's have the system depth to obtain multiple players.
I'm just not sure they are going to be able to find a high end rotation option to slot-in in-front of Wells and Bradish, or be much better than Kremer, etc. 

If they can, great.

 

I think we can do a lot better than Kremer/Gibson/Irvin/rookie-Rodriguez for our 3rd arm in a playoff series.  And that's assuming that Wells and Bradish both remain clearly ahead of that group.  And that's assuming everyone remains available which is probably the least likely outcome.  Someone's gonna get hurt or start struggling, maybe more than one someone, and I'd like more insurance against that.  Also possible the guy we acquire, even if clearly a better pitcher on paper, is that guy that gets hurt or struggles.  No promises anywhere.  I think that the short-term benefit of adding someone who is a capable front-side SP far outweighs the long-term benefit of keeping the trade capital it will cost to acquire such a guy.

 

I think the same about two relief arms.  No promises guys we get will be better than Cano or Baker or Baumann or Perez.  But I like the overall odds of our bullpen becoming a weapon a lot more if we added two more strong arms in the mix.

 

We can afford it all.  We should do it.  Falling short of a good SP and two good RP at the deadline will draw my criticism.  How much criticism will depend on how far we fall short and how available the options were.  All the way short amid a flurry of available players will make me even angrier than I was at the offseason collection of 1-year contracts.  I still think we're likely a playoff team without additions, but I think key additions will increase the odds and increase the upside.  Go get it done.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Maybe we should just sell and stock up some more minor league talent, especially infielders. 

[Mackus]

Giolito or Stroman would be ideal targets as rentals and not break the bank for prospects since they're rentals.  Stroman actually a little worse than a rental, as he's got an option he'll certainly decline but carries some unlikely but highly negative downside risk as he could pick up if he suffers a major injury and would miss all of 2024.  Probably a top-10 guy leading the package but not someone in the Mayo/Ortiz/Kjerstad tier or above (overall top-100 types).

 

Montgomery and Flaherty are less appealing but still worth acquiring if that's the best available, and would cost a good bit less, probably just a guy barely inside our top-20.

[Mackus]

RP are less obvious, I'm also a bit unaware of anyone who might be available and how good they are.  Robertson and Barlow are the only guys with a strong history of success that'll probably move.  Would be real interesting if the Padres decide to sell, could land Hader (or possibly Snell for SP who'd be as intriguing as any other SP on the market).

 

There are a bunch of journeyman RP types having good years, would be tricky to find which guys will keep it up, but they would be solid additions especially as the second best RP we add.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

So in thinking more about this, there is plenty of opinion in here that our offense is good enough. So lets go with that assumption.

 

1. There isn't anybody on the current roster that the O's can't afford to keep as long as they want to.

2. So any field player in the minors could only improve a future lineup but is not necessary.

 

This means they don't need to keep any of the field players they have in the minors. We have the chips, use them. We could trade off several top 10 farm pieces and still have a very strong minor league system. if our offense is good enough as is then we wouldn't be "mortgaging the future."

[Mackus]

So in thinking more about this, there is plenty of opinion in here that our offense is good enough. So lets go with that assumption.

 

1. There isn't anybody on the current roster that the O's can't afford to keep as long as they want to.

2. So any field player in the minors could only improve a future lineup but is not necessary.

 

This means they don't need to keep any of the field players they have in the minors. We have the chips, use them. We could trade off several top 10 farm pieces and still have a very strong minor league system. if our offense is good enough as is then we wouldn't be "mortgaging the future."

 

You still gotta be intelligent about prices you pay for improvements.  We shouldn't trade Jackson Holliday for Jordan Montgomery just because Ortiz and Westburg and Gunnar could possibly be the infield for the forseeable furture. Hell we shouldn't trade Ortiz/Westburg for him just because Holliday, and Gunnar, and Westburg/Ortiz could be the infield moving forward.

 

Also, I think the offense is good enough now.  There aren't glaring weaknesses that must be addressed like I think we have in the pitching staff.  A year or two from now, that might not be the case, so we shouldn't feel like the upper minors depth is all useless at this point.  Mullins, Santander, and Hays have two years of control left.  Maybe Cowser, Kjerstad and Mayo backfill them, but maybe not.  Good AAA prospects don't always become good MLB players.  

[TwentyThirtyFive]

There is no need to prioritize or have a narrow focus. Plenty of bandwidth available to pursue both additions, and I think both are essential. The relievers won't cost much, only a controllable SP would cost anyone we'd really hate to lose and a rental likely wouldn't. Can definitely do everything, just a matter of will.

Controllable high lev BP guys will cost more too.

[BSLChrisStoner]

So in thinking more about this, there is plenty of opinion in here that our offense is good enough. So lets go with that assumption.

 

1. There isn't anybody on the current roster that the O's can't afford to keep as long as they want to.

2. So any field player in the minors could only improve a future lineup but is not necessary.

 

This means they don't need to keep any of the field players they have in the minors. We have the chips, use them. We could trade off several top 10 farm pieces and still have a very strong minor league system. if our offense is good enough as is then we wouldn't be "mortgaging the future."

 

I'd agree and disagree with some of the premise here. 

Agree that you could trade anyone in the system sans Holiday. You have chips. 

Agree to a point that the trade of anyone wouldn't be mortgaging the future exactly. 

Agree you could keep anyone on the roster you'd like (but that doesn't mean you necessarily would want to).

Disagree with the idea that good enough today means you can trade any prospect existing, and not have it impact you tomorrow. 

Obviously Adley, Gunnar, Cowswer, and Westburg can and will be here for sometime. 

Hays, Mullins, Santander, Mountcastle have varying control, and questions. 
One or more of them could be replaced by internal options soon.

Frazier, Mateo, Urias, O'Hearn, Hicks are stopgaps. 

Names you are potentially talking about moving....  Kjerstad, Mayo, Ortiz, Norby, Basallo, Wagner, Haskin. 

You could move any one of them.
You could potentially move several of them for the right piece (a controllable front end starter). 

 

But you can't just trade them for something because you have the ability to do so today.

For example, you could choose to go forward with Mountcastle / Santander largely at 1st / DH.... or you could have Kjerstad / Mayo holding those spots down by the middle of next year. 

If Kjerstad / Mayo get you the starter you want, and you decide that starter + Mountcastle + Santander is a better play now and going forward, that works. 

 

If they aren't excited about the best starter they can obtain, and would rather hold onto Kjerstad's and Mayo's long-term control, that would be understandable too.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

You still gotta be intelligent about prices you pay for improvements.  We shouldn't trade Jackson Holliday for Jordan Montgomery just because Ortiz and Westburg and Gunnar could possibly be the infield for the forseeable furture. Hell we shouldn't trade Ortiz/Westburg for him just because Holliday, and Gunnar, and Westburg/Ortiz could be the infield moving forward.

 

Also, I think the offense is good enough now.  There aren't glaring weaknesses that must be addressed like I think we have in the pitching staff.  A year or two from now, that might not be the case, so we shouldn't feel like the upper minors depth is all useless at this point.  Mullins, Santander, and Hays have two years of control left.  Maybe Cowser, Kjerstad and Mayo backfill them, but maybe not.  Good AAA prospects don't always become good MLB players.  

Well or course. My point is you can't have it both ways. Can't argue our offense is good enough but then not be willing to trade some of the minor league pieces (yes if the price is right) worrying that the offense might not be good enough in the future. if you are worried that the offense might not be good enough in the future (talking about the same guys that are good enough today), then the roster isn't really good enough offensively today. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I'd agree and disagree with some of the premise here. 

Agree that you could trade anyone in the system sans Holiday. You have chips. 

Agree to a point that the trade of anyone wouldn't be mortgaging the future exactly. 

Agree you could keep anyone on the roster you'd like (but that doesn't mean you necessarily would want to).

Disagree with the idea that good enough today means you can trade any prospect existing, and not have it impact you tomorrow. 

Obviously Adley, Gunnar, Cowswer, and Westburg can and will be here for sometime. 

Hays, Mullins, Santander, Mountcastle have varying control, and questions. 
One or more of them could be replaced by internal options soon.

Frazier, Mateo, Urias, O'Hearn, Hicks are stopgaps. 

Names you are potentially talking about moving....  Kjerstad, Mayo, Ortiz, Norby, Basallo, Wagner, Haskin. 

You could move any one of them.
You could potentially move several of them for the right piece (a controllable front end starter). 

 

But you can't just trade them for something because you have the ability to do so today.

For example, you could choose to go forward with Mountcastle / Santander largely at 1st / DH.... or you could have Kjerstad / Mayo holding those spots down by the middle of next year. 

If Kjerstad / Mayo get you the starter you want, and you decide that starter + Mountcastle + Santander is a better play now and going forward, that works. 

 

If they aren't excited about the best starter they can obtain, and would rather hold onto Kjerstad's and Mayo's long-term control, that would be understandable too.

Valid perspective but ....

 

I just don't understand the logic that a player is good enough today but you are worried about them being good enough in the future. Short of just aging out whatever issues or concerns a player faces next year and the year after are facing them today. If they are overperforming today then they could regress tomorrow or next month just as easy as next season.

 

What am I missing?

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Impact trade options. Id hear a case and there may be a case come July 31 that acquiring an SP similar to Gibson can help. For all that hate, Gibson gives you innings and more than not keeps you in games. He rarely blows up. But for now if youre going after a SP it needs to be a guy who is a legit #2 or #3. When it comes to the pen again, I want a high lev arm. Someone immediately slotted into the 8th inning. Doesnt mean he wont struggle but has enough of a track record to be expected to be a high lev guy