107 replies to this topic

[BSLMikeLowe]

Out of curiosity, what cities do you think are possible landing spots, that could have a MLB caliber stadium for them to play in next season? 

I'm all for speculating that this is John's secret agenda. I'll even entertain the idea that he has already been in clandestine discussions with political leadership in one or more cities/states. But the destination would have to be a former MLB site, like Montreal or Dallas/Ft Worth, until a new ballpark is completed. But that would be an expensive and unnecessary layover. The smarter move would be to sign the 5 yr lease, then get to work finalizing a deal to move to his preferred city. That gives MLB plenty of time to approve the move, the destination city has plenty of time to secure a site and financing for the new palace. Meanwhile in Baltimore, attendance may drop off, but they're already use to small crowds, so it's not like he'll be shooting himself in the foot for the short term. 

 

I'll mention this again. Wanting to move, and having somewhere to move, are two very different things.    

 

I mentioned earlier that Montreal is the only place off the top of my head that has both a serviceable temporary facility as well as being on the potential list of cities for relocation/expansion (meaning a new stadium could get done if they know a team is coming).

 

My assumption is that at this point John sees no need to start fanning those flames yet in his leverage play. The uproar that has already been created simply by not picking up the extension may be enough to get the state to concede what he wants. But if summer rolls around and John doesn't feel enough headway has been made, especially with new leadership in the MSA, then I would not be at all surprised to start hearing rumors.

[makoman]

Good post, but for any of this to happen, the Orioles would need the approval of MLB, which isn't likely.

If history is any precedent, baseball simply does not allow teams to move with impunity. Since the onset of the 20th century, only 12 franchises have relocated. I would think that MLB would much prefer to put expansion teams eventually in cities such as Nashville, Portland, et. al. If nothing else, it would lead to some very hefty expansion fees.

MASN gives them some negotiating power. I’d think MLB would love that problem to go away. Still have the “where” problem though.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Good post, but for any of this to happen, the Orioles would need the approval of MLB, which isn't likely. 

 

If history is any precedent, baseball simply does not allow teams to move with impunity. Since the onset of the 20th century, only 12 franchises have relocated. I would think that MLB would much prefer to put expansion teams eventually in cities such as Nashville, Portland, et. al. If nothing else, it would lead to some very hefty expansion fees.

 

The unique caveat with the Orioles is that if MLB lets them relocate, it will effectively put an end to a saga that they would love to be over and done with (MASN). So MLB does have some incentive there.

[BSLMikeLowe]

MASN gives them some negotiating power. I’d think MLB would love that problem to go away. Still have the “where” problem though.

 

Beat me to it.

[weird-O]

I mentioned earlier that Montreal is the only place off the top of my head that has both a serviceable temporary facility as well as being on the potential list of cities for relocation/expansion (meaning a new stadium could get done if they know a team is coming).

 

My assumption is that at this point John sees no need to start fanning those flames yet in his leverage play. The uproar that has already been created simply by not picking up the extension may be enough to get the state to concede what he wants. But if summer rolls around and John doesn't feel enough headway has been made, especially with new leadership in the MSA, then I would not be at all surprised to start hearing rumors.

I don't live in the same rarified air as the Angelos family, so I can't imagine what concessions he would want Maryland to concede to. Since OPACY opened, they've had an agreement that rent is based on attendance. They've continuously kept the ballpark fresh, and made that massive commitment to both stadia. They've maintained a consistently top 3-5 ballpark. The only other thing I can think of, is to enlarge the stadium's footprint to allow for multi-level concourses where you can still see the field while going to get a beer.   

[BaltBird 24]

Montreal couldn't support the team they had 20 years ago. Once the novelty wore off, one would assume they'd probably back to where they were in the early 2000's.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I don't live in the same rarified air as the Angelos family, so I can't imagine what concessions he would want Maryland to concede to. Since OPACY opened, they've had an agreement that rent is based on attendance. They've continuously kept the ballpark fresh, and made that massive commitment to both stadia. They've maintained a consistently top 3-5 ballpark. The only other thing I can think of, is to enlarge the stadium's footprint to allow for multi-level concourses where you can still see the field while going to get a beer.   

 

I'm certainly not privy to the negotiations either. But there is always room for more if you think you can get it. Add in the fresh faces on the state side, along with creating his own leverage with the ticking clock to the end of the year, and maybe John sees a better opportunity.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Montreal couldn't support the team they had 20 years ago. Once the novelty wore off, one would assume they'd probably back to where they were in the early 2000's.

 

Their attendance wasn't that bad prior to the '94 strike, and that's with a stadium that was already among the league's worst. And even several seasons after that it was better (18-19K/game) than what the Orioles have drawn in recent years. The subsequent combination of Loria's ownership, MLB's talk of contraction, then the obvious prelude to relocation, killed attendance. That would happen in any city.

[mdrunning]

I'm certainly not privy to the negotiations either. But there is always room for more if you think you can get it. Add in the fresh faces on the state side, along with creating his own leverage with the ticking clock to the end of the year, and maybe John sees a better opportunity.

Not to bring politics into this, but the Angelos family aligns much more ideologically with the new administration than the previous one. And no new governor wants the threat of a team possibly skipping town on his watch.

 

That could also explain why Steve Bisciotti, whose leanings tend the other way, signed his agreement while Hogan was still in office. 

[weird-O]

Montreal couldn't support the team they had 20 years ago. Once the novelty wore off, one would assume they'd probably back to where they were in the early 2000's.

I often see Montreal on the short list of potential expansion cities, and I think the same thing as you. Toward the end, they didn't even broadcast the games in English. French is a beautiful language and all. But if you don't speak it, you may as well watch the games with the sound muted. The only thing I can think is, they learned from their mistake, and actually wish they hadn't let them go? A new ballpark draws tourism from around the league. So that's a short term boon to the team and city. But I agree that they'd just devolve into the Expos again.    

[BaltBird 24]

Their attendance wasn't that bad prior to the '94 strike, and that's with a stadium that was already among the league's worst. And even several seasons after that it was better (18-19K/game) than what the Orioles have drawn in recent years. The subsequent combination of Loria's ownership, MLB's talk of contraction, then the obvious prelude to relocation, killed attendance. That would happen in any city.

I wouldn't necessarily hold the O's attendance from 2019-2022 against the fans or city. I consider myself a pretty serious fan and only attended 2 games (both in 2019, both on first dates) from 2019-2021.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Not to bring politics into this, but the Angelos family aligns much more ideologically with the new administration than the previous one. And no new governor wants the threat of a team possibly skipping town on his watch.

 

That could also explain why Steve Bisciotti, whose leanings tend the other way, signed his agreement while Hogan was still in office. 

 

That's possible. Though I think more than anything both owners want the best deal they can get, no matter who they're negotiating with. I think the Ravens got done faster because with the NFL's revenue sharing model and fewer games, the details in their lease weren't as nuanced....plus with 5 years left on their original lease they didn't have the same leverage the Angelos's now have.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I wouldn't necessarily hold the O's attendance from 2019-2022 against the fans or city. I consider myself a pretty serious fan and only attended 2 games (both in 2019, both on first dates) from 2019-2021.

 

Then why hold it against Montreal when they were dealing with similar crappy circumstances?

[BaltBird 24]

Not to bring politics into this, but the Angelos family aligns much more ideologically with the new administration than the previous one. And no new governor wants the threat of a team possibly skipping town on his watch.

That could also explain why Steve Bisciotti, whose leanings tend the other way, signed his agreement while Hogan was still in office.

They all have the same beliefs when $$$$ is involved!

[BaltBird 24]

Then why hold it against Montreal when they were dealing with similar crappy circumstances?

I just think comparing Montreal to Baltimore as a baseball city is like comparing apples to oranges.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Off-topic, but in light of unrelated news from yesterday I learned that Tom Brady was drafted by the Expos in 1995, and he became the team's last draft pick to retire from professional sports.

[mdrunning]

The unique caveat with the Orioles is that if MLB lets them relocate, it will effectively put an end to a saga that they would love to be over and done with (MASN). So MLB does have some incentive there.

They could rid themselves of two headaches, actually. They could give the Orioles permission to move, provided the Angelos family sells the team. That's how MLB got rid of Bill Veeck when the Browns were looking to relocate here.

[BSLMikeLowe]

I just think comparing Montreal to Baltimore as a baseball city is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I think the notion of a "baseball city" is outdated considering how teams and leagues generate revenue nowadays.

 

None of this is to say that Montreal is a better option than Baltimore for a baseball franchise. While I think both cities get a bad rap, Baltimore is more ideal so long as MASN remains viable. But if you are John Angelos, and you really need to have the threat of relocating (and being able to do it soon) to help you get what you want, Montreal might be the only obvious option.

[BSLMikeLowe]

They could rid themselves of two headaches, actually. They could give the Orioles permission to move, provided the Angelos family sells the team. That's how MLB got rid of Bill Veeck when the Browns were looking to relocate here.

 

True. MLB would almost assuredly want a fresh start in a new city, including ownership.

[BaltBird 24]

I think the notion of a "baseball city" is outdated considering how teams and leagues generate revenue nowadays.

None of this is to say that Montreal is a better option than Baltimore for a baseball franchise. While I think both cities get a bad rap, Baltimore is more ideal so long as MASN remains viable. But if you are John Angelos, and you really need to have the threat of relocating (and being able to do it soon) to help you get what you want, Montreal might be the only obvious option.

All of this assuming the Angelos family even want to stay in the business of franchise owning once the old man moves on to the next dimension.