109 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

Harden is substantially better than Martin and is the better fit for the Thunder. It's also a hit to team chemistry. So it's not a good move in the short-term. I think this decreases their odds at winning it all substantially.

For the long-term, it's probably a good deal because Lamb is a solid prospect and they'll get two likely good picks (protected), plus they'll be more flexible financially.

[mweb08]

Yep...Houston has been dying to get a star and give up those draft picks.

They should have waited it out and gotten a better player. Now, they lose picks, will give a max deal to a second tier(at best) player and won't have much to go with him.

I'm not sold on Harden being a max player either, but Houston will have the potential to put a good team together with him. They aren't losing any of their own picks, they have a lot of young talent, and they'll have the cap space to offer a max contract next summer. Now they may not get give out another max deal, but they'll have money to use and Morey is a very creative GM.

[SportsGuy]

I'm not sold on Harden being a max player either, but Houston will have the potential to put a good team together with him. They aren't losing any of their own picks, they have a lot of young talent, and they'll have the cap space to offer a max contract next summer. Now they may not get give out another max deal, but they'll have money to use and Morey is a very creative GM.

Yea, Houston has some resources...but if they don't get that max player, they could be screwed. Could have had a lot of picks to work with.

[SportsGuy]

Harden is substantially better than Martin and is the better fit for the Thunder. It's also a hit to team chemistry. So it's not a good move in the short-term. I think this decreases their odds at winning it all substantially.

For the long-term, it's probably a good deal because Lamb is a solid prospect and they'll get two likely good picks (protected), plus they'll be more flexible financially.

Chemistry I can buy...at least early on.

Otherwise, they add Maynor(who was hurt), PJ3, Martin and Lamb....they are better off IMO.

[mweb08]

Yea, Houston has some resources...but if they don't get that max player, they could be screwed. Could have had a lot of picks to work with.

They already have a lot of young talent, though. At some point it makes sense to cash in some of those decent young players/picks to get a star.

[mweb08]

Chemistry I can buy...at least early on.

Otherwise, they add Maynor(who was hurt), PJ3, Martin and Lamb....they are better off IMO.

It doesn't make any sense to make that comparison.

The comparison to make is to compare the roster they had before the deal to the one after. The one before is clearly better for this year imo.

[SportsGuy]

It doesn't make any sense to make that comparison.

The comparison to make is to compare the roster they had before the deal to the one after. The one before is clearly better for this year imo.

Disagree....but I like Lamb a lot.

Would rather have what OKC got vs Harden, both short and long term.

[mweb08]

Disagree....but I like Lamb a lot.

Would rather have what OKC got vs Harden, both short and long term.

Lamb probably won't even play much this year and I don't think an intelligent argument can be made for Martin being close to as good as Harden, especially for the Thunder.

[mweb08]

Lets look at Lamb's competition for playing time:

PG: Westbrook, Maynor, Jackson
SG: Martin, Thabo, Westbrook gets time here too.
SF: Durant, Jones

Unless there's injuries, Lamb is really going to have to impress and the Thunder will need to play a good amount of small ball for him to see much time.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Lets look at Lamb's competition for playing time:

PG: Westbrook, Maynor, Jackson
SG: Martin, Thabo, Westbrook gets time here too.
SF: Durant, Jones

Unless there's injuries, Lamb is really going to have to impress and the Thunder will need to play a good amount of small ball for him to see much time.

If that's a depth chart, I think Sefolosha is still the starter.

[SportsGuy]

Lamb probably won't even play much this year and I don't think an intelligent argument can be made for Martin being close to as good as Harden, especially for the Thunder.

What does Harden do that is that much better than Martin?

[BSLMikeLowe]

What does Harden do that is that much better than Martin?

Better passer, could play the point when Westbrook was out, not as ball-centric, better defense (not saying much, but still)....and his game just fit better with OKC's Big Two than I think Martin will. Martin's real value in this deal is his expiring $13 million. Yeah, Harden as a max-deal player is iffy, at best. But the change in chemistry, no matter how small, will definitely affect OKC this year as their margin for error with the Lakers (and Miami if they reach the Finals) is razor thin.

[SportsGuy]

Better passer, could play the point when Westbrook was out, not as ball-centric, better defense (not saying much, but still)....and his game just fit better with OKC's Big Two than I think Martin will. Martin's real value in this deal is his expiring $13 million. Yeah, Harden as a max-deal player is iffy, at best. But the change in chemistry, no matter how small, will definitely affect OKC this year as their margin for error with the Lakers (and Miami if they reach the Finals) is razor thin.

I didn't think they were better than the Lakers anyway.

I do agree chemistry could/will be an issue early on though.

Still, OKC is no worse than the 3rd seed and probably 1 or 2.

[FlavaDave10]

What does Harden do that is that much better than Martin?

Exactly. I like Harden, but he's a SIXTH MAN for the Thunder. He could have stayed for, what was it, $52 million and he wouldn't? Not that I can blame him.

[Mike B]

Better passer, could play the point when Westbrook was out, not as ball-centric, better defense (not saying much, but still)....and his game just fit better with OKC's Big Two than I think Martin will. Martin's real value in this deal is his expiring $13 million. Yeah, Harden as a max-deal player is iffy, at best. But the change in chemistry, no matter how small, will definitely affect OKC this year as their margin for error with the Lakers (and Miami if they reach the Finals) is razor thin.

I think OKC traded a good player who they did not feel was a max contract guy for another good plyer and a young guy I really like in Lamb who I think could be a Tayshaun Prince type NBA guy, plus two picks which could be high value 1st round picks.

If the Thunder had given Harden the max deal they basically become a 3 player team. This way they set themselves up to grow with younger players while still being anchored by two stars.

[mweb08]

What does Harden do that is that much better than Martin?

He's a significantly better passer, better ball handler, more efficient scorer, stronger rebounder, better 3 point shooter, and a bit better of a defender. And as has been said, he fits better with OKC and is better for their chemistry. He's also 23 while Martin is about to turn 30, so James should improve while Martin likely won't.

These are among the reasons the people in the league view Harden as a near max player, if not a max player and why he made the Olympic team while they look at Martin as an overpaid player who isn't close to an all-star player.

[mweb08]

Exactly. I like Harden, but he's a SIXTH MAN for the Thunder. He could have stayed for, what was it, $52 million and he wouldn't? Not that I can blame him.

Exactly to what? There's no reason to think of Harden and Martin as equals. And yes, he was the 6th man, but he played starter minutes and finished games as the 3rd best player on a team with two top 10 guys.

[mweb08]

I think OKC traded a good player who they did not feel was a max contract guy for another good plyer and a young guy I really like in Lamb who I think could be a Tayshaun Prince type NBA guy, plus two picks which could be high value 1st round picks.

If the Thunder had given Harden the max deal they basically become a 3 player team. This way they set themselves up to grow with younger players while still being anchored by two stars.

The difference between what they were offering and a max deal is rather small so I'm not sure that was their real reasoning, and if it was, that's kind of an odd line to draw imo. I think it's simply because they wanted to save money and get more flexible.

BTW, you're forgetting Ibaka in your 3 player team comment, who they paid almost as much to as they offered Harden.

[FlavaDave10]

Exactly to what? There's no reason to think of Harden and Martin as equals. And yes, he was the 6th man, but he played starter minutes and finished games as the 3rd best player on a team with two top 10 guys.

He shouldn't be a max contract player. He thinks he is one. I don't think the Hornets will miss him too much. Really like the two first round picks coming from Houston. Those are almost guaranteed to be lottery picks.

[mweb08]

He shouldn't be a max contract player. He thinks he is one. I don't think the Hornets will miss him too much. Really like the two first round picks coming from Houston. Those are almost guaranteed to be lottery picks.

And the Thunder thought he was very close to one too, and actually I'm pretty sure they would have given him a max contract if it weren't for the tax penalty. There is no doubt that they preferred keeping Harden to making this trade.

One of the picks is from the Raptors and is top 3 protected, it will likely be a late lottery pick. The other is from the Mavs and is top 20 protected so that's nothing great.