3122 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Lol, really? Because kickers put you into a situation where you have to let go of great players with their cap hit?

I'm pointing out the flaw in the logic. Because something hasn't happened before in a small sample doesn't mean to can't or won't or should be seen as a fatal flaw.

There is a point where you'd be paying the QB too much. That should be based not on the history of other teams but on your own QB, how much he provides you, and how much you need left to build around him. What other teams did five or ten years ago isn't a factor.

[makoman]

Lol, really? Because kickers put you into a situation where you have to let go of great players with their cap hit?

How many great players are you losing with Lamar at say 55 cap hit vs Carr at 40something? One, maybe? Or you're getting rid of like three guys like Boyle + Koch + Ricard. 

 

If the argument is, we should always go for guys on rookie deals, I'm more down for that argument. That has its own difficulties, namely that you better get it right, but you will be able to build a better rest of the team.

[makoman]

Not sure what you’re trying to get at here - what about the consistency in my stance over the course of this debate has indicated I’d advocate for that?

So you're a rookie deal QB guy. That's fine. I was just wondering, when considering how to view the arguments.

[You Play to Win the Game]

How many great players are you losing with Lamar at say 55 cap hit vs Carr at 40something? One, maybe? Or you're getting rid of like three guys like Boyle + Koch + Ricard.

If the argument is, we should always go for guys on rookie deals, I'm more down for that argument. That has its own difficulties, namely that you better get it right, but you will be able to build a better rest of the team.

Rookie deals - unless you have a GOAT tier QB like Mahomes. My main argument is, Lamar isn’t that guy. He’s upper tier, but he’s not the very top tier. If I’m going down this route, it’s with someone I KNOW can carry the (weaker) team if need be.

[Mackus]

Rookie deals - unless you have a GOAT tier QB like Mahomes. My main argument is, Lamar isn’t that guy. He’s upper tier, but he’s not the very top tier. If I’m going down this route, it’s with someone I KNOW can carry the (weaker) team if need be.

I don't agree with the conclusion but the logic here is sound. Just have different evaluations of Lamar or perhaps the likelihood of finding a solid alternative.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think we all agree having a good QB on a rookie deal is the ideal situation. I just dont think people understand how hard it is to find a solid QB on a rookie deal. First you are at the mercy of the rookie class having even 1 capable QB. Look at last year. Pickett went mid to late 1st then the next one doesnt go til the 3rd round. Thats not the norm but there are also so many times QBs get pushed up into the 1st that are 2nd round talents.


My next point would be do you think if the Ravens were to trade Lamar and get a haul and position themselves to draft in the top 5 or 10 to get one of the top QBs that they would have passed on Baker, Rosen, Zack Wilson,Darnold. To think they would have or could have passed on these guys is foolish. If there were a choice Ill give them the benefit of the doubt that they may pick the higher upside guy but you only get the choice of who is available



My last question for those that want to go the rookie route. Lets say you get a Mac Jones. A Daniel Jones. A Justin Fields. We are 2+ years in on all these guys. Mac and Daniel have their teams in position to make the playoffs this year. Are they good enough to win a championship on their rookie contract?They arent performing poorly but at this point the clock is ticking on their rookie deals even if you do believe in an ideal scenario they could win a title.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im assuming Matt Ryan was eating a very good chunk of Atl cap 5 years ago. I can tell you that him making so much wasnt the reason they choked away a huge 4th Q SB lead 

[makoman]

Ryan was at 15% that year, his highest. Was over 14 two others.

Brady was over 13% once in 2006. He lost the AFCCG to the Colts.

Peyton was over 15 three times. Was over 20% in 2003 when he lost to Brady in the AFCCG. His SBs were 10 and 11.

Brees was over 14% once. Roethlisberger was twice. Rodgers twice. Eli three time. Flacco three times. Most of all of those were under 16.

It just wasn’t done much in the past. That’s why I’m with Mackus that just looking at a % and saying “no one won with this” proves very little. That’s different than saying every dollar you give the QB is taken away from the rest of the roster, of course that’s true.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Lamar is winning the SB this year so that will be another example. 

[makoman]

Lamar is winning the SB this year so that will be another example.

He’s only 11.2% this year.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

He’s only 11.2% this year.

I figured he was higher. I dont know how the Ravens would structure a deal but the first 2 years minimum wouldnt hurt in regards to eating too much space. Maybe 3 years. 

[Mackus]

I figured he was higher. I dont know how the Ravens would structure a deal but the first 2 years minimum wouldnt hurt in regards to eating too much space. Maybe 3 years.

Cap is gonna explode so even if you structure a 5@$50M deal (which is more than I think, or at least hope, it should take) like $30M/$40M/$55M/$60M/$65M I think there is a good chance you stay in the 15-20% range. Also if he's still good you extend and restructure the back end to lower the hits and push further.

[85Knight]

Cap is gonna explode so even if you structure a 5@$50M deal (which is more than I think, or at least hope, it should take) like $30M/$40M/$55M/$60M/$65M I think there is a good chance you stay in the 15-20% range. Also if he's still good you extend and restructure the back end to lower the hits and push further.

That's a very good point. Another factor has to be the hit they would take with marketing if they let Lamar walk given his popularity around the league. All of this could have been avoided if they had given him Josh Allen money but they dropped the ball and then Watson happened.

[Mackus]

That's a very good point. Another factor has to be the hit they would take with marketing if they let Lamar walk given his popularity around the league. All of this could have been avoided if they had given him Josh Allen money but they dropped the ball and then Watson happened.

Yep. Obviously there is less knowledge about what Lamar was asking for back then than we have now (which still isn't certain), but I definitely think it was a missed opportunity to not have signed him to an Allen+ deal between 2020 and 2021.

[makoman]

Yep. Obviously there is less knowledge about what Lamar was asking for back then than we have now (which still isn't certain), but I definitely think it was a missed opportunity to not have signed him to an Allen+ deal between 2020 and 2021.

I wouldn’t be surprised if waiting, at least till this past summer, was sort of Lamar’s plan the whole time unless blown away, as he knows like us the prices always go up. He seems to be an extremely confident guy and not exactly a standard do it like everyone else kind of thinker, with no agent telling him every day about injury risks. Mahomes set a bit of a ceiling at the time but once lesser QBs started getting higher AV all bets would be off. But no one will probably ever know.

[bmore_ken]

Percentage of the cap argument aside. I don't want to see the Ravens starting next season or the season after with the alternatives to not signing LJ.

[bmore_ken]

I wouldn’t be surprised if waiting, at least till this past summer, was sort of Lamar’s plan the whole time unless blown away, as he knows like us the prices always go up. He seems to be an extremely confident guy and not exactly a standard do it like everyone else kind of thinker, with no agent telling him every day about injury risks. Mahomes set a bit of a ceiling at the time but once lesser QBs started getting higher AV all bets would be off. But no one will probably ever know.

If I was betting my money, I would bet on that being the situation . At the end of the day , right here right now. LJ is 6th in passing TDs and I think 13th in rushing yards. Dude is about to get paid. we're likely not drafting high enough to get Stroud or Bryce Young. Let Lamar walk and sign Garropolo, Geno Smith, or Daniel Jones?

[85Knight]

Percentage of the cap argument aside. I don't want to see the Ravens starting next season or the season after with the alternatives to not signing LJ.

I would think that the organization doesn't want to lose Lamar either. We can thank the Browns for mucking up the system and unfortunately Lamar is caught up right in the middle of it. We can only hope that it doesn't get too much more messy than it already is.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I think I’m being too doom and gloom on the situation and too dug in. I feel how I feel, but when Mackus says that past performance doesn’t guarantee the same future performance, there’s probably no better example of that than Flacco’s 2012 run. Anyone who says they saw that coming, after what had preceded that to that point in his career would be totally full of it. I thought Flacco and that team as a whole had it in them. I didn’t think Flacco would carry them. I didn’t think he had 12 TD’s and 0 INT’s or even a SB MVP in him. Lamar is way more talented than Flacco, so obviously he has it in him, just doesn’t mean it will be ever come to fruition either, as 2035 has been pointing out.

I still think his best chance to do it would’ve been with a more complete roster vs. the more depleted rosters he’s about to have. But I’ll cool it on the absolutism of it. I could be dead wrong and quite frankly, I’d love to be.

Whoever said the fear thing was spot on, that’s what drives this for me. The Ravens being the org they are has been so important to me. I truly cherish it. I would hate to sink into one of those teams with a good QB but never a true contender.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think I’m being too doom and gloom on the situation and too dug in. I feel how I feel, but when Mackus says that past performance doesn’t guarantee the same future performance, there’s probably no better example of that than Flacco’s 2012 run. Anyone who says they saw that coming, after what had preceded that to that point in his career would be totally full of it. I thought Flacco and that team as a whole had it in them. I didn’t think Flacco would carry them. I didn’t think he had 12 TD’s and 0 INT’s or even a SB MVP in him. Lamar is way more talented than Flacco, so obviously he has it in him, just doesn’t mean it will be ever come to fruition either, as 2035 has been pointing out.

I still think his best chance to do it would’ve been with a more complete roster vs. the more depleted rosters he’s about to have. But I’ll cool it on the absolutism of it. I could be dead wrong and quite frankly, I’d love to be.

Whoever said the fear thing was spot on, that’s what drives this for me. The Ravens being the org they are has been so important to me. I truly cherish it. I would hate to sink into one of those teams with a good QB but never a true contender.

I mean he doesnt have a lot around him right now offensively. OL playing well. Andrews is a stud. But the RBs and WRs are JAGs with Gus and JK out. BTW thats not to disrespect Duv. He's explosive but doesnt get many touches. Its not overly hard to find explosive guys in the mid of drafts. I would try to allocate more heavily to the defensive side of the ball and hope to hit on younger draft picks to be the playmakers for Lamar. Thats not necessarily fair to him but I think he can carry an offense