407 replies to this topic

[Ravens2006]

To be fair, you might as well rush Clark. Hes horrible as a deep cover S

 

I get the sentiment, but still wouldn't do it.  Especially in the 4th and 11 situation.  Marginally more explainable on 2nd and 6, where they got away with it anyway (thanks to an overthrow).  But man... 4th and 11, CHI out of timeouts, I don't see any way to justify it being a good idea to have ZERO safety help over the top.

 

Dalton's a veteran QB.  He might not be what he once was, but he's started a LOT of games in this league against a LOT of teams, and has been in (and come through) in similar scenarios more than 98% of those who ever start an NFL game at QB.  The sheer sight of two deep pre-snap, chances are he's going to see that, and process it as a "I'll need to get this ball out and stay under the safeties".  At least one of those three outside routes probably breaks off and runs a slant / dig / whatever.  

 

It's like Wink ignores history and just keeps saying "I'm going to send my safeties every time" and his river boat gambler mindset routinely gets burned by good QBs in critical situations.

[JStruds]

I think a lot of people are underestimating the impact of the significant injuries that this team has incurred. They have lost 8 out of 22 starters: Stanley, Edwards, Dobbins, Peters, Fort, Williams (not season ending...yet), Elliott and Wolfe while getting almost nothing out of Smith, and Boyle (just came back today). Most teams would have folded right out of the gate with that quality of players gone

Rant over.

Great rant. Over 1/3 of the starting 22 out and somehow the team is 7-3. "Next man up" has produced some awful plays, but lucky or not, the next man (and sometimes the one after him) has clearly stepped up.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I get the sentiment, but still wouldn't do it. Especially in the 4th and 11 situation. Marginally more explainable on 2nd and 6, where they got away with it anyway (thanks to an overthrow). But man... 4th and 11, CHI out of timeouts, I don't see any way to justify it being a good idea to have ZERO safety help over the top.

Dalton's a veteran QB. He might not be what he once was, but he's started a LOT of games in this league against a LOT of teams, and has been in (and come through) in similar scenarios more than 98% of those who ever start an NFL game at QB. The sheer sight of two deep pre-snap, chances are he's going to see that, and process it as a "I'll need to get this ball out and stay under the safeties". At least one of those three outside routes probably breaks off and runs a slant / dig / whatever.

It's like Wink ignores history and just keeps saying "I'm going to send my safeties every time" and his river boat gambler mindset routinely gets burned by good QBs in critical situations.

I said it tongue in cheek. Obviously a S needs to be able to play in deep coverage. Clark scares me out there. I get hes tough and has a good football IQ but man anytime he has to tackle in space or cover Im sweating. Wish he was a bit bigger. Could probably be a good LB.

[Slidemaster]

That you expect the defense that went into training camp expecting Peters, Wolfe, Elliott, Fort, Averett, Williams, Smith to be contributors to not be impacted by not having them available. Doesn't excuse 'everything', but can't just be casually dismissed either.

It's week 11. They've had plenty of time to learn how not to give up 49 yard passing tds to washed up backups on 4th and 11.

[Mackus]

That's a really specific chapter of the "how to play defense" textbook.

[Slidemaster]

Ok, so do you think there is no such thing as a talented guitar player, for example? Only skilled guitar players?

A person's ability to become more skilled is a talent, IMO. Everyone can improve their level of skill at basically anything. But how much and how quickly you can improve is a very individual thing.

Also, I'd argue that most of the things you listed as traits of physical talent are all skills that can be learned and developed. Not height, of course, but coordination, size, and body control are absolutely things that high level athletes train to improve. Larry Fitzgerald was a freak at making ridiculous one-handed catches. But that wasn't just pure talent oozing out of him, he trained incessantly to hone his abilities.

There definitely is such a thing as a talented guitar player (or any musician). "Talent" in that case might be having a good natural ear for pitch, a natural sense of rhythm, and good hand-eye coordination. All of those things get you a good start on an instrument. Those things don't automatically make you great. I also am certain that 95% of the greatest musicians in the world got as good as they did through 95% hard work and not due to "talent."

For reference, I'm a band director in Texas in one of the most successful music clusters in the country. I studied with, am friends with, and have former students who are some of the best in the country at their chosen instrument. I know how much "talent" they had when they first began, and most didn't have much more than anyone else in their class. What separated them was tireless work ethic and a desire to be great.

I'm not saying this to brag on myself (what a stupid thing to brag about), but to give reference for why I believe what I believe. I watch it in action every day. Everyone in the NFL has talent. Some may have more than others, but having more talent is the difference between being a Peyton Manning vs. a Matt Ryan, or a Calvin Johnson vs. a Derrick Mason. It makes a difference at the very top, but it sure as hell isn't going to stop you from succeeding if your work ethic is good enough.

Drew Brees is a great example. Talent level is average at best. Work ethic and intelligence is off the damned charts.

[PrimeTime]

It's week 11. They've had plenty of time to learn how not to give up 49 yard passing tds to washed up backups on 4th and 11.

Do you think they were trying to give up a big play? The Bears went after our 4th/5th corner and beat him on a double move. That was a great call by the Bears and Dalton.

Now, if you want get on Wink for going cover 0 and leaving our 4th/5th corner with no help over the top on the biggest play of the game, that's a discussion I can entertain.

The reality is this, certain guys are starters, certain guys are backups. Whether it's because of talent, ability, hard work or whatever, some players are better than others. Unfortunately for us in 2021, a lot of our good players are hurt. The end result is you have to give snaps to guys that aren't as good and because those guys aren't as good, they're going to get beat from time to time.

[jamesdean]

I don't question the heart of this team nor do I think they're poorly coached.  You don't get to be 7-3 with the carnage of injuries they've endured and not have those qualities intact.  But the constant miscommunication or blown assignments on defense is to me, a deficiency in football IQ.  Unfortunately, you can't fix that.  That's not to say everyone on defense is inherently dense because the Ravens still have some very good players out there.  Harbaugh is never going to stand up at the podium and say, "look, some of these guys are just stupid. There's only so much we can do."  To me, that's the biggest issue and there's not much you can do to fix it.  There's just been too many injuries.  

[Mike B]

A semi 'get off my yard' old man rant:

 

Uh, Lamar, you've had Covid twice, haven't been vaxxed, your immune system is weaker.....I'll bet you weren't masked up when around the Louisville team that got hit big time with the flu.  A mask helps in those situations as well.

 

I can't fault the INT on anyone late in the 4th.  Weird stuff happens sometimes.

 

Harbaugh: trying to get a first down and eating up a lot more clock would have been helpful before the field goal that made it 9-7.  Played it way too safe.  Did you really think a two point lead was safe?

 

Someone please take that Cover Zero page out of the playbook and shove it up someone's arse.  Especially with the inexperienced DBs.  I'll admit, that was one hell of a throw and catch, especially since Dalton misfired so many times.  But.....it ain't working, and ain't going to work this year.  Not with the talent that is currently there.

 

rant over

I think Lamar may have gotten the vax.  He no longer wears a mask on the sideline, which is a league rule if you are not vaxed.

[PrimeTime]

I don't question the heart of this team nor do I think they're poorly coached. You don't get to be 7-3 with the carnage of injuries they've endured and not have those qualities intact. But the constant miscommunication or blown assignments on defense is to me, a deficiency in football IQ. Unfortunately, you can't fix that. That's not to say everyone on defense is inherently dense because the Ravens still have some very good players out there. Harbaugh is never going to stand up at the podium and say, "look, some of these guys are just stupid. There's only so much we can do." To me, that's the biggest issue and there's not much you can do to fix it. There's just been too many injuries.

Well said. Particularly the injury part. There's essentially a false bravado and machismo behind the "injuries aren't an excuse" and "next man up" slogans. Injuries are a reality and the impact of injuries is even more difficult to deal with in a salary cap sport.

When your starters get hurt, you have to play backups and the reason the backups aren't starters is often because they're not good enough to be starters. Therefore, the net result is your team isn't as good.

[Slidemaster]

Do you think they were trying to give up a big play? The Bears went after our 4th/5th corner and beat him on a double move. That was a great call by the Bears and Dalton.

Now, if you want get on Wink for going cover 0 and leaving our 4th/5th corner with no help over the top on the biggest play of the game, that's a discussion I can entertain.

The reality is this, certain guys are starters, certain guys are backups. Whether it's because of talent, ability, hard work or whatever, some players are better than others. Unfortunately for us in 2021, a lot of our good players are hurt. The end result is you have to give snaps to guys that aren't as good and because those guys aren't as good, they're going to get beat from time to time.

Getting beat from time to time is one thing. They get beat virtually every game, multiple times, often at the worst possible times.

I'm not asking for a perfect team, but the Ravens used to get the best out of defensive players who they drafted and signed. Now they feel like they're less than the sum of their parts.

And yes, sure, injuries. That excuse only lasts for so long. As they get used to playing with the personnel they have, they should be getting better, not worse.

[Mike B]

I think a lot of people are underestimating the impact of the significant injuries that this team has incurred.  They have lost 8 out of 22 starters:  Stanley, Edwards, Dobbins, Peters, Fort, Williams (not season ending...yet), Elliott and Wolfe while getting almost nothing out of Smith, and Boyle (just came back today).  Most teams would have folded right out of the gate with that quality of players gone but this organization and coaching staff have done an amazing job at piecing a roster and game plan together each week to get us to 7-3.  We didn't have our stellar QB and top WR today on O and we were down to Chris Westry as one of our CB's, a rookie free safety and were still able to pull it out.  Is it frustrating as hell, no doubt, but I think when it is all said and done, when all the emotion is gone, this will have been one of EDC and Harbaugh's most impressive accomplishments.  The depth on this team is amazing, stretched to the gills, but still playing hard and the team has shown ZERO quit, though I think the Miami game was as close as they have come to throwing in the towel.  This isn't a fun or flashy team but they are as resilient as any I have seen and that is all due to the fantastic organization and coaching staff.

 

Rant over.

Great Post.

[Slidemaster]

I don't question the heart of this team nor do I think they're poorly coached. You don't get to be 7-3 with the carnage of injuries they've endured and not have those qualities intact. But the constant miscommunication or blown assignments on defense is to me, a deficiency in football IQ. Unfortunately, you can't fix that. That's not to say everyone on defense is inherently dense because the Ravens still have some very good players out there. Harbaugh is never going to stand up at the podium and say, "look, some of these guys are just stupid. There's only so much we can do." To me, that's the biggest issue and there's not much you can do to fix it. There's just been too many injuries.

I don't mean to be harsh, but again - if some of their players are too stupid to play football, why are they on the team? Nobody is forcing them to draft or sign idiots. They interview and work out these players before they decide to bring them on.

Make better personnel decisions and coach them to be their best.

[jamesdean]

I don't mean to be harsh, but again - if some of their players are too stupid to play football, why are they on the team? Nobody is forcing them to draft or sign idiots. They interview and work out these players before they decide to bring them on.

Make better personnel decisions and coach them to be their best.

I'm not saying they're stupid as people in every day life.  What I'm saying is there's a reason they weren't starters before all the injuries and part of that is they didn't display enough football "smarts" to warrant being on the field with the first team.  Physically, I don't think there's that much distinction between players at the NFL level.  As athletes, they're all gifted or everyone on the street could try out. If you continually have the same disconnect on the field leading to blown plays week after week, I just don't accept that as it being the coaching.  They're unfortunately not retaining instruction and if it weren't for the injuries, would be firmly seated on the bench. More than likely, will be out of football soon.  When you strip it down to harsh reality, the Ravens are fielding at best, a mediocre team right now that happens to be 7-3.  I'm no Harbaugh apologist but if he gets this team to the play-offs, it may very well be his finest hour as a coach. 

[hallas]

I'm re-thinking the cover-0 play on 4th and 11 after having some time to stew on it, and I actually think it was the correct play to go for a blitz.  My reasoning is that a conversion that doesn't score a touchdown is more likely to result in the Bears scoring without giving us the ball back and having a meaningful amount of time on the clock..  The Ravens were only up by 2, and if the Bears got into field goal range with less than a minute left, they would likely either burn all of the Ravens timeouts or they'd just be able to run the clock out.  It doesn't really matter whether the Ravens are able to prevent the conversion with a sack or by stopping the ball carrier short of the sticks - if either of those things happens the game is over.  If you assume that the chance for a successful stop is the same whether we go with a 2 deep zone and rush 4, or if we blitz, then it makes some amount of sense for us to concede the touchdown on a failed stop with 2 timeouts and 1:45 left.

 

I think you could argue about whether you'd rather have Huntley go 35 yards in 35 seconds with 0 timeouts, but that scenario would still require another defensive stop for us to get that opportunity.  Just conceding the touchdown would put it all in the offense's hands.

[Slidemaster]

I'm not saying they're stupid as people in every day life. What I'm saying is there's a reason they weren't starters before all the injuries and part of that is they didn't display enough football "smarts" to warrant being on the field with the first team. Physically, I don't think there's that much distinction between players at the NFL level. As athletes, they're all gifted or everyone on the street could try out. If you continually have the same disconnect on the field leading to blown plays week after week, I just don't accept that as it being the coaching. They're unfortunately not retaining instruction and if it weren't for the injuries, would be firmly seated on the bench. More than likely, will be out of football soon. When you strip it down to harsh reality, the Ravens are fielding at best, a mediocre team right now that happens to be 7-3. I'm no Harbaugh apologist but if he gets this team to the play-offs, it may very well be his finest hour as a coach.

What makes you confident that it isn't, at least partially, a coaching problem?

[Mike in STL]

It sounded like they were examining Fields for a concussion. But reports are he’s been taken to the hospital to have his spleen and ribs examined.

Would a ruptured spleen retire you? Isn’t that what happened to Chris Simms? Would hate to see that.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'm re-thinking the cover-0 play on 4th and 11 after having some time to stew on it, and I actually think it was the correct play to go for a blitz. My reasoning is that a conversion that doesn't score a touchdown is more likely to result in the Bears scoring without giving us the ball back and having a meaningful amount of time on the clock.. The Ravens were only up by 2, and if the Bears got into field goal range with less than a minute left, they would likely either burn all of the Ravens timeouts or they'd just be able to run the clock out. It doesn't really matter whether the Ravens are able to prevent the conversion with a sack or by stopping the ball carrier short of the sticks - if either of those things happens the game is over. If you assume that the chance for a successful stop is the same whether we go with a 2 deep zone and rush 4, or if we blitz, then it makes some amount of sense for us to concede the touchdown on a failed stop with 2 timeouts and 1:45 left.

I think you could argue about whether you'd rather have Huntley go 35 yards in 35 seconds with 0 timeouts, but that scenario would still require another defensive stop for us to get that opportunity. Just conceding the touchdown would put it all in the offense's hands.

Conditions tough and their kicker already had missed. You cant let them walk in there.Not that we let them walk in but you get the gist. No need to be that risky there.

[cprenegade]

The Ravens are 7-3.  That's impressive considering all of the injuries.  But when you look at the games, it really is amazing how many games they should have lost and instead won.  Is that luck, is it being that good in clutch time, is it coaching players up to handle that moment?  I don't know.  Probably a combination of all of it. 

 

Certainly luck in Detroit because of a delay of game that was not called.  Probably luck against the Colts because of their kicker issues.  Today was more getting it done in clutch time and also being a little lucky to be playing what I think is one of the worst teams in the NFL.  I've seen Jax once, Detroit once against the Ravens.  Not seen Houston or NY Jets.  Can't imagine any of them are worse than the Bears.  Seriously, give up a PI on the first play after having the lead?  Wow.  That's just bad.  

 

All in all, the record is what it is.  The schedule gets a lot tougher now.  The defense has been terrible all season long and is going to get eaten alive if they continue to play like that.  But unless there is a total collapse, the Ravens should not only make the playoffs but probably win the division.  Once playoff time starts that kind of defense will only lead to an early exit.  If they somehow can tighten that part of the game up, the AFC is not all that intimidating.  No reason why there is any less of a chance that they run a three game table than anyone else in the AFC.  

 

Final note.  Look out for Indianapolis.  They got off to a bad start, and we all saw what happened here on Monday night.  But right now, they are playing about as well as anyone in the league.  And also, btw, KC looked pretty good especially defensively today and everybody's pre-season favorite, Buffalo, is now a WC team.  New England is in first place in that division.  They weren't down too long were they?

[hallas]

Conditions tough and their kicker already had missed. You cant let them walk in there.Not that we let them walk in but you get the gist. No need to be that risky there.

That's assuming the Ravens can get another defensive stop in non-gimme FG range. The Bears were also on the easier side to kick it, so I don't think the difficult conditions that contributed to his first miss apply.