102 replies to this topic

[dude]

No, I was referring to Davis' season ending hip surgery.

 

HIs hip surgery would have nothing to do with anything.  You can trade a guy on the IL.  

 

I would trade Means by himself for a monster haul, maybe. 

 

So tell me what that looks like.....

[dude]

I guess the point is to discuss the darkest timeline. Usually with the Orioles that isn't far from what actually happens.

 

....darkest timeline for who?

 

They (the media) didn't float an extension narrative, they floated a trade narrative.

 

I think the challenge for basically everyone here (and everywhere) is you're trying to align actions with what's best for winning.  That's not the top priority. 

[hallas]

HIs hip surgery would have nothing to do with anything.  You can trade a guy on the IL.  

 

 

So tell me what that looks like.....

 

Was trading players on the injured list always allowed?  I seem to recall it not being permitted without sign-off from the commissioner a while back.

[dude]

Was trading players on the injured list always allowed?  I seem to recall it not being permitted without sign-off from the commissioner a while back.

 

I think so.  Many years ago there was some belief that you couldn't trade players on the DL, but it happened several times. It's hard to keep up with some of the things happening with rules given the last year+, but I think the only thing that commish has to officially sign off on is cash amounts above a certain level.

 

So if the Orioles tried to make a team take a portion of the 30M deferred that's already been committed or had to include cash against current years, you go to a different box (I believe).  If you just treat the player(s) as a block of money, they are what they are.

[bmore_ken]

Was trading players on the injured list always allowed?  I seem to recall it not being permitted without sign-off from the commissioner a while back.

My question is who's taking on a ton of salary for a player that sucks healthy and now has a hip injury?    dude is a riot. 

[dude]

My question is who's taking on a ton of salary for a player that sucks healthy and now has a hip injury?    dude is a riot. 

 

Why are you trying to act like Davis would have some part in this outside of his salary.

 

Do you even understand what we're talking about?  Before the 2020 season the Giants traded for Zack Cozart from the Angels and the Angels included one of their top 5 prospects (Will Wilson) to move his ~12M in salary.  The Giants didn't want Cozart, they just released him.  You want to throw shade all the time but seem clueless on the actual discussion.

 

Steve Cohen wouldn't want Davis.  He would release him.  He wouldn't care about his injury status or anything else. Whether he's completely healthy or missing a leg, it wouldn't matter (well, it would matter to Chris).  He's just an incentive the Agneloses wouldn't say no to.  He could put together a package that basically has zero consequence to his team (the prospects are depth and the money) and get a quality LHed pitcher to pair with deGrom over the next 3 years (or more). 

[Mackus]

My question is who's taking on a ton of salary for a player that sucks healthy and now has a hip injury? dude is a riot.

Half the league if not more would take Davis' salary to land Means, IMO. Take it on and give up good prospects is a smaller list but still probably more than a handful of teams.

Orioles absolutely should not be prioritizing dropping Davis' salary over getting back even better prospects if they do trade Means, but seems very much on brand for them to do just that.

[bmore_ken]

Half the league if not more would take Davis' salary to land Means, IMO. Take it on and give up good prospects is a smaller list but still probably more than a handful of teams.

Orioles absolutely should not be prioritizing dropping Davis' salary over getting back even better prospects if they do trade Means, but seems very much on brand for them to do just that.

Totally disagree with the first comment, totally agree with the second.

[Mike B]

I am not sure why we as fans are so worried about Davis and his contract.  He is no longer part of the team, is barely part of the organization and is not taking at bats from any player.  The money would just wind up in the Angelos pocket.  Giving up a TOR type pitcher to save the money is of no interest to me.

[makoman]

I am not sure why we as fans are so worried about Davis and his contract.  He is no longer part of the team, is barely part of the organization and is not taking at bats from any player.  The money would just wind up in the Angelos pocket.  Giving up a TOR type pitcher to save the money is of no interest to me.

Of course no fan would want it to happen. But it's plausible to discuss, especially since they did a very similar thing less than 3 years ago (albeit on a lesser scale).

[Mackus]

Totally disagree with the first comment, totally agree with the second.

 

What do you think Means would get paid if he were a FA right now?

 

If it's more than 3/$39M or so, then that equates to a team taking on Davis' remaining non-deferred salary (~$22M) and having Means for the next 3 years at the arb rates he's likely to earn.  Most teams in the league would do that.  I think all of them that are trying to win would aside from perhaps TB and Oakland or other very low budget teams that can't really leverage their cashflow.

[Mackus]

I am not sure why we as fans are so worried about Davis and his contract.  He is no longer part of the team, is barely part of the organization and is not taking at bats from any player.  The money would just wind up in the Angelos pocket.  Giving up a TOR type pitcher to save the money is of no interest to me.

 

Exactly why fans are worried about it possibly happening.  The O's could definitely anchor Means with Davis' remaining contract and get other teams to bite.  That would be very bad for the future of the team's talent level, far worse than keeping Means or dealing him unblemished by an anchor contract.  But it would save the Angeloses lots of money. 

[Mike B]

Of course no fan would want it to happen. But it's plausible to discuss, especially since they did a very similar thing less than 3 years ago (albeit on a lesser scale).

I understand that teams do that and it is possible to package a bad contract, along with a top flight player, but IMO, it is not something the Orioles should do.

Many seemed to be obsessed with Chris Davis.  He is effectively done with the organization.  The money is lost and even if a part could be recovered, it will just go in the Angelos families pockets.  

[bmore_ken]

What do you think Means would get paid if he were a FA right now?

 

If it's more than 3/$39M or so, then that equates to a team taking on Davis' remaining non-deferred salary (~$22M) and having Means for the next 3 years at the arb rates he's likely to earn.  Most teams in the league would do that.  I think all of them that are trying to win would aside from perhaps TB and Oakland or other very low budget teams that can't really leverage their cashflow.

The real question is if you're packaging Davis's salary with Means, what are you getting back?

[Nigel Tufnel]

The real question is if you're packaging Davis's salary with Means, what are you getting back?

 

Salary relief.  Bad for fans, but good for owners.

[bmore_ken]

Salary relief.  Bad for fans, but good for owners.

That would be the wrong reason to do it. Which now that I think about it, is a reason something like that could happen. 

[Mike in STL]

Mentioned in the Gray-Rod thread Elias was on the fan this morning. Mentioned that we don’t have many guys who have expiring contracts, so expect the trade season to be quiet around here.

I don’t want Means traded. But it alarms me that Elias only views guys as tradeable when the FA market for them is in plain sight, and if the Manny deal is an indicator, when the return will be minimal because Means would be a rental to whomever takes him on.

I hope they realize as long as Means keeps trucking along, he gets more expensive by the day, and the trade value gets lower and lower. It’s the same thing that applied to Manny and the Orioles basically waited until the guys on their way out could make a trade to get back an awful return, that they would love to play against if they landed jobs elsewhere in baseball.

If Means doesn’t drop off a lot, he better get an extension this off-season, as one of the foundational pieces of this build.

[makoman]

But it alarms me that Elias only views guys as tradeable when the FA market for them is in plain sight, and if the Manny deal is an indicator, when the return will be minimal because Means would be a rental to whomever takes him on.
 

 

While you're obviously right, he traded Bundy with 2 years of control left, Givens with 1.5, Castro with 2.5. He's not dumb, if all of us understand how years of control impacts trade value I'm certain he does. I don't believe half of what GMs say to the media, even less when they're talking about their future trade possibilities.

[Mackus]

I think the shorter starts relative to past generations is much moreso due to relief pitchers getting better and better (which is a result of greater depth and talent overall) than it is due to the players getting less tough or less durable than in the past.

Certainly some other factors, such as trying to protect arms by limiting innings and pitches, but I think the rising quality of RP is the main reason.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think the shorter starts relative to past generations is much moreso due to relief pitchers getting better and better (which is a result of greater depth and talent overall) than it is due to the players getting less tough or less durable than in the past.

Certainly some other factors, such as trying to protect arms by limiting innings and pitches, but I think the rising quality of RP is the main reason.

Absolutely. The back end and even middle RP was never this dominant. With certain guys or teams it may not have applied, but you always used to hear about teams trying to get to the opposing teams BP. Yeah, not the case anymore. Tge avg K/9 for RPs are pretty crazy. Obviously, its up across the board but some crazy numbers out of the pen.