77 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Ok fine we will play nice and just go with "bizarre"

[BobPhelan]

Could still bring in Madison Bumgarner to fill out the rotation.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

One of Urias or Mateo should probably remain on the roster. They should be looking to deal from the glut of young infielders and preserving service time, which still allows some opportunity for at least one vet.

I don't think either one of them belong on the roster unless Westburg or Ortiz are traded.

 

Without a trade the infielders this year should be:

Gunnar

Westburg

Ortiz

and soon enough Holliday.

[Mackus]

I don't think either one of them belong on the roster unless Westburg or Ortiz are traded.

 

Without a trade the infielders this year should be:

Gunnar

Westburg

Ortiz

and soon enough Holliday.

 

I think you want one of them for the utility infielder role.  I don't love the idea of sticking Ortiz on the bench 5 days a week nor in a strict timeshare with Westburg.  

 

How soon Holliday comes up is a big question, though.  If he's up early, then you gotta find a trade for either Ortiz or Westburg.  If he's not expected until midseason, we can play both Ortiz and Westburg regularly until he is and then make a decision later.  I still think it's wisest to use either Westburg or Ortiz to lead a deal for a good SP.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Could still bring in Madison Bumgarner to fill out the rotation.

Prob should bring Frazier back too. Oh and Jackie Bradley Jr as the 4th OF.

[mweb08]

I think you want one of them for the utility infielder role. I don't love the idea of sticking Ortiz on the bench 5 days a week nor in a strict timeshare with Westburg.

How soon Holliday comes up is a big question, though. If he's up early, then you gotta find a trade for either Ortiz or Westburg. If he's not expected until midseason, we can play both Ortiz and Westburg regularly until he is and then make a decision later. I still think it's wisest to use either Westburg or Ortiz to lead a deal for a good SP.

Yep.

Mayo's ETA also a factor.

It's a poor usage of value to have Ortiz and/or Westburg be part time players and while some may not care, it's also poor treatment of the player(s).

If they want to slow play Holliday and Mayo, then having Ortiz and Westburg on the roster makes more sense, but it's also delaying the inevitable while one of these guys can be traded to address an actual need or at least diversify the organizational talent more.

Norby is also in the mix btw.

[dude]

So this is confusing.  Urias is undoubtedly much better defensively, especially a 3B, we can all agree.  He's also a much better hitter, outproducing Schoop in each of the past 4 seasons since debuting and dramatically so in '22 and '23.  So what do you use to gauge quality if not hitting and defense in order to say Schoop can do everything Urias does? Its a bizarre opinion.

 

Schoop is 32.  I think if you look at the Tigers the last couple years, they have some real internal challenges with something because they have a lot of under-performance.  Schoop has shown a much bigger offensive Talent set in his career, again, he's only 32.

 

Defensive metrics suck in general, but as of 2022, Schoop was considered a pretty good 2B (I think he was actually the highest rated?).  I don't think he forgot how to play defense in 2023 so I chalk that up to variance of sample and wonkiness of data.

 

Completely agree the Urias is the superior defender at 3B, but in a limited role basis, I don't think it matters much.  If I'm the Mariners or the Mets, I absolutely want Urias 150-game glove over what I think Schoop would deliver, but that's the everyday profile.  Why SEA may want Urias and have zero interest in Schoop.

 

Like I get that the role Urias will be asked to fill is small, especially if/once Holliday or Ortiz are playing regularly, but I still don't see how you can straight-faced suggest that Schoop is equally capable of filling that role as Urias.  

 

...because Schoop wants that role and Urias doesn't.  It's that simple.  The statistical variance in what should be the small sample is irrelevant because it's small.  Schoop doesn't suck.  You are taking millions (millions) of dollars out of Urias pocket by forcing him into a limited role. What he gets in ARB2 as the starting 3B for the Mariners (or Mets) versus a limited UT role in Baltimore is several million different (gets bigger in ARB3). 

 

I'd bet anything that Jon Schoop would love to be back in Baltimore in that limited role, hunting a Championship Ring.  Not that Urias doesn't want a Championship Ring, he does, but his window of salary generation is NOW.  He wants a starting role.

 

I say Schoop, but there's a dozen guys that easily fill that role.  Guys like Harrison or Chavis.  Lot's of just-off-the-roster guys would love the opportunity of Baltimore.  They're helpful to Hyde because he's not trying to work in some set number of ABs.  I always refer to this as the Chris Gomez role.  I have a bag full of gloves, tell me what you need me to today, including just being ready to go from the bench.

 

I want guys that want to be here.  If I have to bribe you to be here or you're looking around for a different/better opportunity, I don't need you here. Leverage any value Urias has to build the system (I love the Celesten angle).

 

I think a bench of

McCann (there's another extension!!)

McKenna

Frazier

Schoop

 

is a solid, ready to go, bench.

 

If Frazier wants to look for more opportunity ($$) elsewhere, I respect that choice.  

 

I mentioned a guy like Oliver Dunn in the Burnes trade.  26 year old kid at AA that's kind of exploded recently and would be a kid I think just really, really wants to get a ML roster opportunity.  I look at his profile as like Vavra profile with more defense, speed and power.

 

Lot's of options.

[Mackus]

I'd happily trade Urias if it makes sense, and it wouldn't take much to make sense, especially if they aren't going with Holliday to begin the year and want Mateo on the roster in order to have a backup that is SS eligible.  But I gotta get something back to make my team worse, and going from Urias to Schoop definitely makes the team worse regardless of the pysch evaluations.  Unless Urias is going to be a malcontent, I'm not worried if he'd rather be starting somewhere.  We have no reason to think he'll be a problem, he's been a reserve so far and never been a problem.  Also no reason to think Schoop wants to be here or certainly not that he wants to be here so badly that he'd play better because of it.

 

I think trading Urias makes a lot of sense.  I wouldn't sign a replacement; Mateo is the replacement.  And then once Holliday comes up, you can jettison Mateo and just go with an offense-first utility infielder (maybe Norby if he's not dealt?) since you'll have two SS capable infielders on the roster already.  

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Schoop is 32. I think if you look at the Tigers the last couple years, they have some real internal challenges with something because they have a lot of under-performance. Schoop has shown a much bigger offensive Talent set in his career, again, he's only 32.

Defensive metrics suck in general, but as of 2022, Schoop was considered a pretty good 2B (I think he was actually the highest rated?). I don't think he forgot how to play defense in 2023 so I chalk that up to variance of sample and wonkiness of data.

Completely agree the Urias is the superior defender at 3B, but in a limited role basis, I don't think it matters much. If I'm the Mariners or the Mets, I absolutely want Urias 150-game glove over what I think Schoop would deliver, but that's the everyday profile. Why SEA may want Urias and have zero interest in Schoop.


...because Schoop wants that role and Urias doesn't. It's that simple. The statistical variance in what should be the small sample is irrelevant because it's small. Schoop doesn't suck. You are taking millions (millions) of dollars out of Urias pocket by forcing him into a limited role. What he gets in ARB2 as the starting 3B for the Mariners (or Mets) versus a limited UT role in Baltimore is several million different (gets bigger in ARB3).

I'd bet anything that Jon Schoop would love to be back in Baltimore in that limited role, hunting a Championship Ring. Not that Urias doesn't want a Championship Ring, he does, but his window of salary generation is NOW. He wants a starting role.

I say Schoop, but there's a dozen guys that easily fill that role. Guys like Harrison or Chavis. Lot's of just-off-the-roster guys would love the opportunity of Baltimore. They're helpful to Hyde because he's not trying to work in some set number of ABs. I always refer to this as the Chris Gomez role. I have a bag full of gloves, tell me what you need me to today, including just being ready to go from the bench.

I want guys that want to be here. If I have to bribe you to be here or you're looking around for a different/better opportunity, I don't need you here. Leverage any value Urias has to build the system (I love the Celesten angle).

I think a bench of
McCann (there's another extension!!)
McKenna
Frazier
Schoop

is a solid, ready to go, bench.

If Frazier wants to look for more opportunity ($$) elsewhere, I respect that choice.

I mentioned a guy like Oliver Dunn in the Burnes trade. 26 year old kid at AA that's kind of exploded recently and would be a kid I think just really, really wants to get a ML roster opportunity. I look at his profile as like Vavra profile with more defense, speed and power.

Lot's of options.

Garbage post after garbage post

[makoman]

Being done at 32 isn't strange and unusual, it happens. Saying he's only 32 over and over doesn't make him remember how to hit. I can understand the idea that being on a team going nowhere might depress your stats, but Schoop's 2022 savant page is awful (2023 too, but not really enough PAs to tell there). I don't want any part of him.

 

Back to Urias, I'm sure he would love to play 155 games, so would I, but I agree with Mackus that there's no evidence he's going to be unhappy or a malcontent or doesn't want to be here, so if he's a reserve here when all the smoke clears I'm good with that. If a trade makes sense I'm good with that too.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I think the O's Front Office needs to redo the entire roster.

 

They need to ask every single player if they would like to play for a different team since that other team may pay them more money, or play them more games, or has better weather, or prettier people.......Then the O's can trade every player to their chosen destination so they can all be happy happy joy joy. And the FO doesn't care about the trade return because, after all, they have treated their players as best as they could.

 

And the FO can all sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya knowing they are the most woke caring franchise in the sporting world.

 

These whole lines of posting on all these threads have gone down the rabbit hole.....and I went right after it......LOL

[Pedro Cerrano]

The downfall of all posts is when the author starts suggesting what a player “thinks” or “wants”

It was Trea’s biggest problem

[dude]

The downfall of all posts is when the author starts suggesting what a player “thinks” or “wants”

 

Yes, thinking a player wants to maximize their earning potential, that wants more opportunity to leverage their skills, is crazy.

[BaltBird 24]

Ideally the starting IF should consist of Henderson, Ortiz, and Westburg. Which position you'd want them at is up for debate, but I'd ride Gunnar at 3B, Ortiz at SS, and Westburg at 2B. I'm also ok with Gunnar at SS, Ortiz at 2B, and Westburg at 3B.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Yes, thinking a player wants to maximize their earning potential, that wants more opportunity to leverage their skills, is crazy.

But Schoop doesn’t want to do this, correct?

[BaltBird 24]

But Schoop doesn’t want to do this, correct?

I'm not advocating for Schoop, but he should just be happy if he's offered an opportunity to be in someone's bench in 2024.

[dude]

But Schoop doesn’t want to do this, correct?

 

Yeah, I'm just not sure what you want to do here.  Schoop has made 46+M in his career.  He's scuffled the last couple years in Detroit both on the field and as a Team.  There's a hierarchy of desire at every level of Player.  Every player has limited windows of opportunity (the other thread) and MLB Player is a closed set.  There's a reason you see so many guys signing minor league deals.  They absolutely want to get on a Team because without that they're going to the Developmental or Indy League for basically nothing.

 

MLB is a lifestyle and if you've been doing it for a decade+ and like it, like the comradery, the paycheck, the travel, the competition, then doing (you and your agent) a good job of assessing opportunity is critical to that.  Kiner-Falefa gets 2/15M (ugh) but if there's interest, then Teams are willing to do this odd "1 WAR" type deal.  This is musical chairs and when the music stops, you need a chair or you are no longer a MLB player. Maybe you get AAA opportunity, something.

 

I shouldn't really need to type any of that, it should be the common understanding of how things roll.

 

I don't know what opportunities Schoop will have.  Maybe he's negotiating a big multi-year deal with someone and I'd just be completely wrong.   My guess would be he's looking for any ML opportunity and if you offered him a 1.25M guarantee, he'd be excited to "come home to Baltimore" and help this Team battle for a Championship. Maybe there's more money out there for him. Maybe he'd rather pursue a Team that will give him more PT.  Maybe he wants to stop working out and head back to Curacao. 

 

He can do whatever he wants, he doesn't check in with me, but for a Player where he seems to be today, with no WS on his resume, re-joining the team you came up with in a role that keeps him in the competitive limelight of MLB, on a team looking to make some noise seems like a pretty obvious primary consideration.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, who cares, but there's other guys that will want this type of opportunity too.  ST in 5 weeks....chairs are dwindling.

[BobPhelan]

I’m sure he’d be happy to get a minor league deal with a ST invite from anyone but that doesn’t change the fact that he isn’t good and he plays a position where we have several better players than him in house.