40 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

Balt Sun: Former Orioles outfielder Adam Jones still has Baltimore on his mind

https://www.baltimor...xjze-story.html

[dude]

I'm not sure how people expect others to respond to questions like this.  Jones wasn't just 'putting that out there', he was responding to a question.

 

1) Huge fan of AJ and people can mock whatever contracts I've put out there in the past on him.  If I was paying him 10M right now, I'd be OK with that.  If you think that's based on my WAR assessment, you are (still) missing the boat.

 

2) I found his answer most interesting in what he didn't say.  I'm only looking at what was quoted (I didn't listen to the whole thing) but I'd assume if he said he wanted to play in Baltimore again, that would have been included.  Talking about managing and the FO is likely more just diversionary from creating context to play in Baltimore again.

 

3) I'm not from Baltimore, never actually lived there, but as I've said many times, I sort of consider it a second home and it's good to see AJ wanting to remain part of the fabric of the city.

 

He can play on my team any day.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Lot to like about the man.  

And the Orioles should wrap their arms around him, and have him part of the organization in any capacity he wants when he hangs up the spikes. 

I'm glad he isn't on the team today.  He would just be taking ab's away from guys who potentially can be part of your future. 
 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Im surprised the Os didnt resign him or extend him earlier. Obviously it was the right decision but its one the Os have often made in the past.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'm not sure how people expect others to respond to questions like this. Jones wasn't just 'putting that out there', he was responding to a question.

1) Huge fan of AJ and people can mock whatever contracts I've put out there in the past on him. If I was paying him 10M right now, I'd be OK with that. If you think that's based on my WAR assessment, you are (still) missing the boat.

2) I found his answer most interesting in what he didn't say. I'm only looking at what was quoted (I didn't listen to the whole thing) but I'd assume if he said he wanted to play in Baltimore again, that would have been included. Talking about managing and the FO is likely more just diversionary from creating context to play in Baltimore again.

3) I'm not from Baltimore, never actually lived there, but as I've said many times, I sort of consider it a second home and it's good to see AJ wanting to remain part of the fabric of the city.

He can play on my team any day.

1.So you wouldve paid him an annual 8 figure salary from '19-?? for what reason exactly if it isnt about production (WAR)?

2. He said nothing about playing because he understands he's not a MLB caliber player anymore.

[Mike B]

Adam was a class act, his entire time here.  I wish him success, no matter where he goes or what role he plays.

[dude]

1.So you wouldve paid him an annual 8 figure salary from '19-?? for what reason exactly if it isnt about production (WAR)?

 

I think Adam Jones was the most important factor to the success of the 2012-2016 teams, it's not a WAR calculation.

 

You seem limited to thinking about it in terms of WAR which is why you don't get it.

 

Beyond what he does on the field (more important than WAR to winning), it's rare to find a guy that can have an exceptional impact on the community.  I believe professional Sports Teams have a responsibility to the community at a number of levels and he would be the first anchor I'd pick for Baltimore.

 

That day is likely passed in terms of what I'd want more directly from him (I'm not making an argument for him today or tomorrow), but it's good to see him still express his desire to stay engaged in a city that could use some help.  

[BSLChrisStoner]

A reminder on what Dude wanted to offer Jones before he signed with Arizona in '19.

Dude, you wanted him in part for his leadership...but leadership on teams which couldn't contend in 19 and 20, and were largely comprised of guys who wouldn't be part of your future wouldn't have provided value.

If he was still here he would be taking abs from guys you want to give more time. Know you are now suggesting that you wouldn't still want him here, but what you suggested before he went to Arizona would still have him in an Oriole uniform.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think Adam Jones was the most important factor to the success of the 2012-2016 teams, it's not a WAR calculation.

You seem limited to thinking about it in terms of WAR which is why you don't get it.

Beyond what he does on the field (more important than WAR to winning), it's rare to find a guy that can have an exceptional impact on the community. I believe professional Sports Teams have a responsibility to the community at a number of levels and he would be the first anchor I'd pick for Baltimore.

That day is likely passed in terms of what I'd want more directly from him (I'm not making an argument for him today or tomorrow), but it's good to see him still express his desire to stay engaged in a city that could use some help.

He had become a league avg player and likely wouldve been below avg over the duration of the extension you gave him. You dont give a guy 8 figures annually to be an unproductive team leader. Period. His contributions off the field have zero to do with giving him a contract to play ball. Sign him to be a team and by extension city ambassador if you want him around the young players and doing work in the community.

[BSLRoseKatz]

I'd be cool with Adam involved in just about any capacity but I'm not sure if I'd love to see him as a manager just because it'd feel bittersweet to criticize him for bullpen management or lineup construction, whatever else are valid critiques of managerial strategy 

 

I feel like team legends managing/coaching their team goes poorly way more often than it ends happily 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I'd be cool with Adam involved in just about any capacity but I'm not sure if I'd love to see him as a manager just because it'd feel bittersweet to criticize him for bullpen management or lineup construction, whatever else are valid critiques of managerial strategy 

 

I feel like team legends managing/coaching their team goes poorly way more often than it ends happily 

Yeah, I get this point. 

Though I largely think managerial strategy is overblown (especially in the 2020s with Front Offices largely influencing Management between the lines). 

I think what you are hiring with any Manager is someone who can communicate with the team, coaching staff, press / public, and Management.  A leader of men.  Someone that will be accountable, and can voice things individually and collectively when need be. 

Jones checks a lot of those boxes.

[You Play to Win the Game]

He had become a league avg player and likely wouldve been below avg over the duration of the extension you gave him. You dont give a guy 8 figures annually to be an unproductive team leader. Period. His contributions off the field have zero to do with giving him a contract to play ball. Sign him to be a team and by extension city ambassador if you want him around the young players and doing work in the community.

Agreed. If Chris Davis was the leader in the clubhouse, would we all be okay with that contract then?

Can't wait for Jones to be back in the organization in whatever capacity. I could easily see him being a great manager.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

A reminder on what Dude wanted to offer Jones before he signed with Arizona in '19.

You wanted him in part for his leadership...but
leadership on teams which couldn't contend in 19 and 20, and were largely comprised of guys who wouldn't be part of your future wouldn't have provided value.

If he was still here he would be taking abs from guys you want to give more time. Know you are not suggesting now youd still want him here, but believe what you suggested before he went to Arizona would still have him in an Oriole uniform.

This is my biggest problem with many of dude's ideas. I can live with the almost surely wasteful way he'd spend money during this period. Its the recklessness and harm it could bring that makes it foolish. To that point is your note about taking ABs away from guys we need to be giving ABs. Also is the trading of young team controlled inexpensive assets that he has proposed trading for mediocre overpriced vets.

[BSLRoseKatz]

Yeah, I get this point. 

Though I largely think managerial strategy is overblown (especially in the 2020s with Front Offices largely influencing Management between the lines). 

I think what you are hiring with any Manager is someone who can communicate with the team, coaching staff, press / public, and Management.  A leader of men.  Someone that will be accountable, and can voice things individually and collectively when need be. 

Jones checks a lot of those boxes.

Yeah I have no doubts about Adam's leadership but I'd still much rather complain about the lineups if they're made by some dude whose playing career ended in AA rather than one of the most iconic Orioles ever, even if Adam isn't really the one making those decisions 

[BSLMikeLowe]

I feel like team legends managing/coaching their team goes poorly way more often than it ends happily 

 

Yeah, nearly all managerial tenures end in firing (or to put it euphemistically, "mutually parting ways"). You hate to see a legendary player's legacy tainted that way. It's just like back when some people said the O's should hire Cal as president or GM.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Yeah, nearly all managerial tenures end in firing (or to put it euphemistically, "mutually parting ways"). You hate to see a legendary player's legacy tainted that way. It's just like back when some people said the O's should hire Cal as president or GM.

Yep, can't be a hypocrite with Jordan, definitely made that same point with Ripken. 

The other thing that comes up with hiring players who were once excellent, is that they sometimes struggle dealing with players who won't put in the same work, or can't perform as they did. 

[BSLRoseKatz]

Yep, can't be a hypocrite with Jordan, definitely made that same point with Ripken. 

The other thing that comes up with hiring players who were once excellent, is that they sometimes struggle dealing with players who won't put in the same work, or can't perform as they did. 

100%, Ted Williams' last year as a manager his team ranked dead last in BA, OBP, SLG and homers

[RShack]

100%, Ted Williams' last year as a manager his team ranked dead last in BA, OBP, SLG and homers

 

That was his last year, after he was bored and disgusted... at first, he made a big difference for the better...

[russsnyder]

That was his last year, after he was bored and disgusted... at first, he made a big difference for the better...

So in other words, Ted Williams quit?

Great managerial legacy if that's true.

IMO, Ted would have been a great hitting coach. I don't think he cared much about many other aspects of the game.

[dude]

A reminder on what Dude wanted to offer Jones before he signed with Arizona in '19.

Dude, you wanted him in part for his leadership...but leadership on teams which couldn't contend in 19 and 20, and were largely comprised of guys who wouldn't be part of your future wouldn't have provided value.

If he was still here he would be taking abs from guys you want to give more time. Know you are now suggesting that you wouldn't still want him here, but what you suggested before he went to Arizona would still have him in an Oriole uniform.

 

It's amazing to me how comfortable you are getting my position wrong.

 

1) I stand by the things I said in the link.  I've posted a number of contracts on Jones going back to 2014-ish.  The conditions constantly morph, so things do change.  You don't like them, but the contracts are intentional on my part.  When Adam Jones commits 30M, and the Orioles match it to building the "Adam Jones Youth Opportunity Center" in Baltimore, maybe you'd feel different about things.  Maybe you're still evaluating WAR.

 

2) ...but that link was from 30 June.  I'm not rebuilding.  You continue to insist that there's nothing the Orioles could have done in 2019, 2020 and I'll continue to reject that.  I think I can find some more direct language on my part where I say I don't want him for rebuilding.  I wouldn't have been against having him, but the team conditions (he still has to be part of winning, regardless of how I feel about him in the community) changed dramatically from June to August to November.  That contract was clearly not a "before he went to AZ" contract.  That was a "before we decided to quit" contract.  My opinion is that it didn't matter at that point, because the Orioles had already started to work to sour the relationship indirectly.  Likely intentional to facilitate the separation.

 

3) The notion that somehow the goal of a baseball team is to get ABs for younger guys is ridiculous.  There are no standings for that.  Again (and again and again), the notion of 'tryout' is wrong.  Yes, clearly, if Jones was getting 487 PAs, then some other player would not be getting those PAs.  So what.  If you were a competitive team, nobody cares.  That's not anti- bringing young guys in, everything I  want to do (or would want to do, I'm not part of it) would include young players.

 

You acquire, develop  and plan the paths you want your most projectable players to take.  That may not be right, it may change, different guys may emerge, but whatever you do, you are doing it inside a plan for Win Now and Win Later.

 

Including Adam Jones doesn't mean you can't have young players on the roster.  His salary presence wouldn't prevent you from doing a single thing, ever**.

 

Again, to your last sentence where you try to link the positions that aren't linked.  I didn't want him in rebuilding.  I personally think that relationship was already broken and I think I say that in the link and acknowledge he's not coming back. Fine.

 

I'm not advocating for him in any role.  I think it's interesting that he avoided the player angle in his response.  I wouldn't make him the Manager or the GM.  I think it's great that he is still contributing to the community and would continue that (more?) into the future, although I'd guess that's a fraction of the impact he could have, better resourced, as a Player on the Team.