148 replies to this topic

[JordanKough]

One final thought, are our run concepts too complicated? Like are they taking up too much time? 

 

Lamar is reading the field pre-snap to read for running lanes and then checking out. He's doing a lot of the pre-snap prep work, film review, and practice time committed to working on the depth of this run scheme. Are we running out of time in practice to improve the pass game? 

 

One of the two checks needs simplified (ie. you can call certain basic run or pass at the line quickly based on what you see because it will be open). And the complexity and return from an improved passing game and simplified running game seems much higher value return to me than a complex running game with a simplified passing game. 

[Steve55]

So that makes it alright, and it shouldn't be addressed now?


I'm not saying a to change the offense. Keep the running concepts. Keep a 60/40 run/pass split. The running game is phenomenal.

What I AM saying is we need to address the passing scheme. If you're ok with this passing scheme, you're flat out wrong. We run the most basic routes, and we bunch receivers in the same area of the field. And we wonder why we can't get people open, or struggle in the postseason? Seriously, go see it for yourself. Its embarrassing to watch our route combo's. If you don't think that needs to change, you're just burying your head in the sand.


Sure, add IOL, get a possession guy who can make plays. Im all for it. But guess what, if you run that big time WR on a quick slant, then run Andrews in a hitch right in front of his slant, then drag Brown from the other side on a crosser right into the same area as the slant, it isn't going to work. Literally 2 defenders can cover all 3 guys at once in a zone. And THAT is literally happening in this offense. And the constant defense of this is so frustrating.

 

No I am not alright with this passing scheme. I just said they made some adjustments like the Colts game. It was working towards tying the score until the Int. I also said it seems Harbaugh is OK with it since its been run for the past 2 yrs.

 

I'd like to see them adopt the pick plays that teams run vs us. Don't know why we don't.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

They can be 100% right about it being simplistic... and it doesn't matter much when the Ravens have led the league in point differential the last 2 years.

The question is can it work in the post-season, and I think it's simplistic to say it can work in the regular season, but can't in the playoffs.

Ding ding ding. Post deserves more dings. Things tighten up in the playoffs. Tenn fans were wondering what happened to their offense when wr beat them. Sure Buf fans were too though it didnt matter because they won scoring 17. The offense put up a lot of yards against Tenn last year. They moved the ball ok against Buf they just didnt score. Paralysis by overanalysis is a real thing and its what most talking heads and fans would do.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I think your right ....But, last year we blew pretty much everyone away in the regular season. This year we struggled with the good teams. So we might be worse off during the regular season next year if more teams adjust.

We didnt struggle with good teams. Lost to Buf and KC. Swept Cle . Got swept by Pitt. Split with Ten and beat Ind. That comes out to 4-5 but we outplayed Pitt and Tenn at home and didnt have anyone to play in the 2nd Pitt game. That doesn't even count as a loss to me.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

As team adjust to defend the run we will no doubt need to pass more. I think you will see teams mimic Buffalo’s game plan. I was actually surprised that more teams didn’t try to mimic the Chargers plan in the MVP season.

Except we moved the ball against Buf. 340 yards of offense in tough conditions. Buf only put up 220

[Ravens2006]

Agree 100%. It has to be a Harbs thing, because the only time we saw some of this was the Kubiak year.

I've long thought the day the Broncos plucked Kubiak away to be a HC set the Ravens offense back off their potential... Here's a good article from a Vikings outlet about Kubiak... Worth a read. I'd LOVE to see some of this incorporated more in to the Ravens playbook given the skillsets they have overall at QB, RB, TE, and WR...

https://www.dailynor...e-zone-blocking

[Mike in STL]

I didn’t see the piece on Warner’s breakdown of the passing concepts. Though we’ve seen ourselves plenty of instances where receivers end up in the same place, routes that don’t make sense. I’m willing to bet Warner has a little extra bias against the lack of a creative passing game, being a QB and all. Steve Smith, love the guy on the field. As an analyst he brings nothing to the table. His receiver bias is through the roof. When they go through highlights, no receiver has ever committed offensive pass interference in his mind.

On Roman, here is an article from when he left San Fran for Buffalo.

https://www.ninersna...n-san-francisco

Some of the complaints:

Plays are complicated and time consuming, which is why it takes a while to get to the line, leaving little time to read the defense.

Roman called the plays, until they got in the Red Zone, then it changed to another coach. Jim Harbaugh could override the play call, had final say. Too many cooks in the kitchen, that probably isn’t happening here.

Opposing teams could guess plays based on the subs and alignment. Heard this from the Ravens this year.

Conservative with leads let’s the other teams back in the game. I’m not sure that’s an issue here since when the Ravens win, typically win easily. Especially in 2019. Large point differentials have something to do with defense too, but also piling up the points.

[hallas]

As team adjust to defend the run we will no doubt need to pass more. I think you will see teams mimic Buffalo’s game plan. I was actually surprised that more teams didn’t try to mimic the Chargers plan in the MVP season.

You need the personnel for it. Buffalo and SD have good safeties and fast LBs. If you don't have those things you can't stack the box and succeed vs the Ravens run game. There's too much misdirection.

Also I think that the line play has a lot to do with it. The line played like absolute garbage against the Bills. I've long contended that while our run game starts with Lamar, he gets too much credit for his running success while the line doesn't get enough. When we had Yanda lining up on Aaron Donald's shoulder pad, he was shut down and the Ravens put up 42 against a good defense and the best defensive player in the league.

[Biggsy]

Ding ding ding. Post deserves more dings. Things tighten up in the playoffs. Tenn fans were wondering what happened to their offense when wr beat them. Sure Buf fans were too though it didnt matter because they won scoring 17. The offense put up a lot of yards against Tenn last year. They moved the ball ok against Buf they just didnt score. Paralysis by overanalysis is a real thing and its what most talking heads and fans would do.

Tennessee and Buffalo played a legit top 10 defense with everyone healthy. Our secondary, despite the lack of a true FS and elite pass rusher, is still, when healthy, a phenomenal unit.

Tennessee and Buffalo have middle of the road defenses at best. They got shut down by a top defense that was healthy and playing at a high level. We got shut down by average defenses. Why? Because they sold out to stop the run.


This thought that nothing needs to change isn't overanalysis. Its obvious. A HOF QB with no investment in this team called it out. Its not just Warners breakdown. (even though its 100% spot on.) Its watching the plays with your own eyes. You CANNOT have route concepts where 2 or 3 guys go to the same spot. You cannot run someone like Ricard out of the slot, on a 2 yard out. Those are happening, consistently, every game. Thats not overanalysis. That's what us actually happening.

And part of why I believe Lamar is capable of running a complicated passing scheme, is 1; he ran one in college to near perfection. 2; He is able to run one of the more complicated running schemes to perfection. If a guy can read a defensive front. Then in a half second after the snap, read what is happening, and know if he needs to pull it or send it with the RB. He can take a snap and read a coverage and know where to throw the ball.

Lamar runs a very complicated running scheme, to near perfection. Nothing that Roman does in the run game is easy. The blocking concepts, the misdirection. The options. It is extremely hard to run. And Lamar nails it almost every single time. To think he can run something so complicated, but isn't smart enough or talented enough to also run a equally as complicated passing scheme is very narrow-minded.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Nothing significant needs to change.Hopefully they can improve their passing game whether its schemes, player personel, etc .The offense has been effecient and high scoring the last two years. You dont change the identity of this offense. Again, the Ravens offense under Flacco ran into problems when they handed him the keys and went away from Air Coryell under Cameron. You can't try to do too much when this offense has been very good as is.

[jamesdean]

Tennessee and Buffalo played a legit top 10 defense with everyone healthy. Our secondary, despite the lack of a true FS and elite pass rusher, is still, when healthy, a phenomenal unit.

Tennessee and Buffalo have middle of the road defenses at best. They got shut down by a top defense that was healthy and playing at a high level. We got shut down by average defenses. Why? Because they sold out to stop the run.


This thought that nothing needs to change isn't overanalysis. Its obvious. A HOF QB with no investment in this team called it out. Its not just Warners breakdown. (even though its 100% spot on.) Its watching the plays with your own eyes. You CANNOT have route concepts where 2 or 3 guys go to the same spot. You cannot run someone like Ricard out of the slot, on a 2 yard out. Those are happening, consistently, every game. Thats not overanalysis. That's what us actually happening.

And part of why I believe Lamar is capable of running a complicated passing scheme, is 1; he ran one in college to near perfection. 2; He is able to run one of the more complicated running schemes to perfection. If a guy can read a defensive front. Then in a half second after the snap, read what is happening, and know if he needs to pull it or send it with the RB. He can take a snap and read a coverage and know where to throw the ball.

Lamar runs a very complicated running scheme, to near perfection. Nothing that Roman does in the run game is easy. The blocking concepts, the misdirection. The options. It is extremely hard to run. And Lamar nails it almost every single time. To think he can run something so complicated, but isn't smart enough or talented enough to also run a equally as complicated passing scheme is very narrow-minded.

Well said. 

[Biggsy]

Nothing significant needs to change.Hopefully they can improve their passing game whether its schemes, player personel, etc .The offense has been effecient and high scoring the last two years. You dont change the identity of this offense. Again, the Ravens offense under Flacco ran into problems when they handed him the keys and went away from Air Coryell under Cameron. You can't try to do too much when this offense has been very good as is.

"You know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

Now, I'm not advocating we change the offense as a whole. Or we even touch the running game. That would be stupid.

What I am advocating for, is a complete overhaul of the passing concepts. You can keep the same offense. The same formations. The same exact running concepts and run/pass splits. To say we need to stop running the same run game scheme is idiotic. It very clearly works. Hell, it doesn't just work, at times it's flat out dominant.

What DOES need to change are the route concepts. Honestly, that's not even that big of a change. Roman needs someone who can come in, take his formations, and design route concepts that work. Running 2 or 3 guys to the same area doesn't work. And it will never work. You need depth. You need separation. Teams that give us trouble run zone concepts almost exclusively. Tennessee got burned when they tried to get cute and go man. Every time they did, Lamar took off and killed them. Buffalo didn't make that mistake. They stacked the line and played zone concepts, that covered the parts of the field they knew Roman liked to throw. When you consistently have 2 or 3 guys running to the same spot, you can freely blitz an extra man, knowing you can effectively cover 2 or 3 guys with one person.

Another problem I had, and Warner also highlighted. Lamars slot receiver, and dump off option, was Patrick Ricard. I love Ricard. But he has no business being in the slot. Especially when you have Duvernay, Snead, and Proche who can all run the same routes as Ricard, better, and be a lot more effective after the catch.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Again, if they can do things within this Roman offense to improve the passing then by all means do it. But the offense and the man behind the offense need to and will remain.

[hallas]

"You know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

Now, I'm not advocating we change the offense as a whole. Or we even touch the running game. That would be stupid.

What I am advocating for, is a complete overhaul of the passing concepts. You can keep the same offense. The same formations. The same exact running concepts and run/pass splits. To say we need to stop running the same run game scheme is idiotic. It very clearly works. Hell, it doesn't just work, at times it's flat out dominant.

What DOES need to change are the route concepts. Honestly, that's not even that big of a change. Roman needs someone who can come in, take his formations, and design route concepts that work. Running 2 or 3 guys to the same area doesn't work. And it will never work. You need depth. You need separation. Teams that give us trouble run zone concepts almost exclusively. Tennessee got burned when they tried to get cute and go man. Every time they did, Lamar took off and killed them. Buffalo didn't make that mistake. They stacked the line and played zone concepts, that covered the parts of the field they knew Roman liked to throw. When you consistently have 2 or 3 guys running to the same spot, you can freely blitz an extra man, knowing you can effectively cover 2 or 3 guys with one person.

Another problem I had, and Warner also highlighted. Lamars slot receiver, and dump off option, was Patrick Ricard. I love Ricard. But he has no business being in the slot. Especially when you have Duvernay, Snead, and Proche who can all run the same routes as Ricard, better, and be a lot more effective after the catch.

 

They used to do that with Juszczyk , basically use him as a second tight end/slot guy.  I think they did it to sell the run pre-snap.  I also dont think we'd be doing that if we weren't so thin at TE.  He doesn't have the worst hands out there, but there's probably better things we could be doing instead of having him as the dumpoff guy in the flat. Like maybe helping out more with the crappy pass protection.

[Roll Tide]

 

 

 

Baltimore Sun: Who’s to blame in playoff exit?

 

 

5) Receivers 

 

4) Running Backs

3) Greg Roman ....They say that the routes were vanilla and there wasn’t enough screens to counteract the blitzes 

 

but also, 

 

But when Jackson dropped back Saturday, he typically had an open receiver (or two) to target. Even with the team’s running struggles, Roman’s play-calling had Ravens open in the flats and over the middle. The passing attack found a way to stress the Bills’ underneath defenders, play after play. It just struggled with execution until after halftime.

 

2) Oline particularly Powers

 

 

1) Lamar Jackson 

 

After Saturday’s loss, Snead said “the sky is the limit” for Jackson. He also cautioned that this game — the second-lowest rated of Jackson’s playoff career, according to Pro Football Focus — could be a “wake-up call.” 
 

The trouble started early, when Jackson held on to the ball too long in the face of a cornerback blitz by Levi Wallace and took a needless back on first-and-10, derailing a promising opening drive

 

That set an ominous tone. Jackson seemed at times to not trust what he was seeing. The Bills’ defensive structure changed only so much, but Jackson either waited too long to deliver quick hitters over the middle or looked receivers off before they would’ve gotten open in the flats. On the third-and-3 before kicker Justin Tucker’s second missed field-goal attempt, he tried to hit Andrews on a tight-window sideline throw when Edwards was open over the middle on a simple check-down.
On Jackson’s pivotal interception, he made cornerback Taron Johnson’s job easy, staring down Andrews as he waited for him to turn around at the goal line. Jackson had a clean pocket; he could’ve easily manipulated the coverage with his eyes and pivoted left, where Snead was a far better option. Instead, Jackson forced the pass to Andrews and watched it go the other way.Even some of Jackson’s good plays could’ve been great plays. On two third-and-long conversions Saturday, Roman had Brown and Snead run deep crossing patterns that he figured would stress the Bills’ deep safeties.

The first time the Ravens ran it, Jackson found Brown for a 21-yard completion on third-and-18. The second time, Jackson scrambled 15 yards on third-and-13. Both times, no defensive back bothered to cover Snead as he streaked across the field.

 

 

 

 

https://www.baltimor...fye4-story.html

[You Play to Win the Game]

Down boy.

[Roll Tide]

Down boy.

 

I didn’t write it! But, I think is pushes back on those who want to blame everyone else but Lamar.

[Biggsy]

Baltimore Sun: Who’s to blame in playoff exit?


5) Receivers

4) Running Backs

3) Greg Roman ....They say that the routes were vanilla and there wasn’t enough screens to counteract the blitzes

but also,




2) Oline particularly Powers


1) Lamar Jackson







https://www.baltimor...fye4-story.html

Did Willie Sneads dad write this article? 🤣

I mean, it literally tried to turn a 21 yard pass on 3rd and 18, and a 15 yard run, into negatives. If he took sacks, threw incompletions, or had negative outcomes on those, by all means rip him. But 2 plays that gained a net of 36 yards? Come on man.

Lamar for sure had a bad game. Wish we could have seen how he finished, had Mekari not sacrificed him with his 30 yard snap.

But once again, I refuse to believe a QB can run one of, if not the most complex and hardest running schemes in football. And can read and react to a defense in less than a second to almost near perfection. But he somehow can't figure out how to read a defensive coverage and make the right decisions.

[Biggsy]

Biggest need for sure is IOL. Rumors so far seem to hint at Bozeman moving to center. We need to find legitimate guards to run this offensive scheme properly.

[Biggsy]

I didn’t write it! But, I think is pushes back on those who want to blame everyone else but Lamar.

Who here, hasn't said Lamar had a bad game? General consensus is he played below average to bad. Pointing out vanilla route concepts, poor blocking and questionable play calls doesn't absolve Lamars bad game.