127 replies to this topic

[The Epic]

Let's keep this thread to OH talk, guys.

 

Ack, just saw this, and not sure how I missed it. 

 

Still, I feel like this is maybe something we can keep a-political and move to the Jacob Blake thread? Is that a fair compromise? I think the conversation is a good one (long as it doesn't become a big angry mess!).

[mweb08]

No.

I don't care what you think.

Got it?

Good.

Well I don't tolerate racism. Sorry if me rebutting racist points and arguments upsets you. Also sorry that you can't logically counter my rebuttal.

[russsnyder]

Well I don't tolerate racism. Sorry if me rebutting racist points and arguments upsets you. Also sorry that you can't logically counter my rebuttal.

 

  No need to apologize.

 

  I'm not upset about anything,

[The Epic]

My only real issue with the on field demonstrations is that some can't take or understand the blowback that the players or the NFL is receiving, I have no issue with the players' demonstrating what they perceive to be injustices. However, because some one does not embrace that narrative that is being put forth by the demonstrations, feels that the kneeling itself is disrespectful, or has an issue with Jacob Blake being "honored" because he was shot by the police does not make their view wrong. 

 

Hot take: I think everyone protesting absolutely understands that there would be blowback. All protests have possible counter-protests and consequences, and I bet all people, back to Kap, knew that this level of vitriol was possible (except maybe JJ Watt for some reason). 

 

They just believed that the cause was more important than the vitriol.

 

For the record (and I think I've said this before), I don't care at all if people counter-protest with their dollars or with their feet because they feel disrespected in some sort of way; sports will survive without them. Do I think they're in the wrong? Sure. But the point of the protest is to bring awareness and eventual action to the issue. If they get mad at the protest and don't act on the injustice, well, that's telling. If they get mad AND act on the injustice, that's a discussion that's worth having.

 

Getting mad at the protest and, say, suspending a site that hundreds of people consume, is pretty high on the "Don't Be A Jerk" scale, to bring it back to the subject lol.

[SBTarheel]

It's supposed to make people uncomfortable. 

 

And I'm really glad it does!!

[russsnyder]

Hot take: I think everyone protesting absolutely understands that there would be blowback. All protests have possible counter-protests and consequences, and I bet all people, back to Kap, knew that this level of vitriol was possible (except maybe JJ Watt for some reason).

They just believed that the cause was more important than the vitriol.

For the record (and I think I've said this before), I don't care at all if people counter-protest with their dollars or with their feet because they feel disrespected in some sort of way; sports will survive without them. Do I think they're in the wrong? Sure. But the point of the protest is to bring awareness and eventual action to the issue. If they get mad at the protest and don't act on the injustice, well, that's telling. If they get mad AND act on the injustice, that's a discussion that's worth having.

Getting mad at the protest and, say, suspending a site that hundreds of people consume, is pretty high on the "Don't Be A Jerk" scale, to bring it back to the subject lol.

I guess we'll see how much blowback there really is when they start letting fans back in the stands. I don't think owners like Steve Biscotti understand how condescending they sound to their fan base when they state publicly that the on field demonstrations were not Anti Ameican of Anti Veteran, etc.

My point is simply that people are going to react to Anthem demonstrations in their own way. Some are going to support the cause, some are not going to. The bottom line is that everyone's perception is their reality. Guys like Biscotti are doing nothing but damage control. Like you state, you are going lose some fans, but you put the social statement above that. That's fine, let the chips fall. You shouldn't tell people how or what to think. They can make up their own minds about the on field demonstrations. (Their minds are probably made up anyway.)

In that same vein,that's what Tony did. He got butt hurt because the Orioles postponed a game over the Jacob Blake shooting. I'm right and I don't want to hear a differing view on this so I'll shut it down.

[The Epic]

I guess we'll see how much blowback there really is when they start letting fans back in the stands. I don't think owners like Steve Biscotti understand how condescending they sound to their fan base when they state publicly that the on field demonstrations were not Anti Ameican of Anti Veteran, etc.

My point is simply that people are going to react to Anthem demonstrations in their own way. Some are going to support the cause, some are not going to. The bottom line is that everyone's perception is their reality. Guys like Biscotti are doing nothing but damage control. Like you state, you are going lose some fans, but you put the social statement above that. That's fine, let the chips fall. You shouldn't tell people how or what to think. They can make up their own minds about the on field demonstrations. (Their minds are probably made up anyway.)

In that same vein,that's what Tony did. He got butt hurt because the Orioles postponed a game over the Jacob Blake shooting. I'm right and I don't want to hear a differing view on this so I'll shut it down.

 

I don't think SB is being condescending because I don't think he even believes it, to be honest. I think he's trying to keep his bottom line high while not angering his employees. If you shot him up with truth serum, I bet he just wishes that the players would shut up and ball.

 

However, it's absolutely not anti-American or anti-Veteran, whether you agree with the issue or not. Protesting is quite literally one of the most American things you can do. Veterans have come out specifically to support Kap and other protesters in their efforts. You can hate it (I hate several "free speech" exercises out there), but it's part of the fabric of this place...or at least it should be. If Kap never happened and Drew Brees, this Monday, was kneeling for the anthem and said that it was because vets were being mistreated, nobody would care. Nobody would even blink. It'd be a cute story, awash with donations, and nothing more. It's just the fact that it's considered a divisive issue that makes the motive "unseemly." And they might be told that they can't ,come 2021, because that "keep black people in their place" money is -long-. But the NFL is so embarrassingly rich that if people are slow to show up, it'll be years upon years before they feel any ill effects.

 

Everybody made their own statements their own way. In addition to what others have done, Alejandro Villanueva literally covered the victim's name up and put a soldier's name on his helmet, and Tyler Eifert put David Dorn. Do I agree with what they did? Absolutely not, but it's their right to do so, and it isn't going to make me turn off the TV. Most of the people that are doing these protests have had to deal with "differing views" their whole lives, with no power to do anything about it. 

 

I wonder what would have happened if they would have, somehow, forced every player to stand for this military exercise. Some people would be turned off and possibly might not watch anymore, and that's their right. Making statements as innocuous as "end racism" would make some people turn their TVs off. You're not going to please everybody, so you might as well be true to yourself.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I don't think SB is being condescending because I don't think he even believes it, to be honest. I think he's trying to keep his bottom line high while not angering his employees. If you shot him up with truth serum, I bet he just wishes that the players would shut up and ball.

What makes you say this?

[russsnyder]

I don't think SB is being condescending because I don't think he even believes it, to be honest. I think he's trying to keep his bottom line high while not angering his employees. If you shot him up with truth serum, I bet he just wishes that the players would shut up and ball.

However, it's absolutely not anti-American or anti-Veteran, whether you agree with the issue or not. Protesting is quite literally one of the most American things you can do. Veterans have come out specifically to support Kap and other protesters in their efforts. You can hate it (I hate several "free speech" exercises out there), but it's part of the fabric of this place...or at least it should be. If Kap never happened and Drew Brees, this Monday, was kneeling for the anthem and said that it was because vets were being mistreated, nobody would care. Nobody would even blink. It'd be a cute story, awash with donations, and nothing more. It's just the fact that it's considered a divisive issue that makes the motive "unseemly." And they might be told that they can't ,come 2021, because that "keep black people in their place" money is -long-. But the NFL is so embarrassingly rich that if people are slow to show up, it'll be years upon years before they feel any ill effects.

Everybody made their own statements their own way. In addition to what others have done, Alejandro Villanueva literally covered the victim's name up and put a soldier's name on his helmet, and Tyler Eifert put David Dorn. Do I agree with what they did? Absolutely not, but it's their right to do so, and it isn't going to make me turn off the TV. Most of the people that are doing these protests have had to deal with "differing views" their whole lives, with no power to do anything about it.

I wonder what would have happened if they would have, somehow, forced every player to stand for this military exercise. Some people would be turned off and possibly might not watch anymore, and that's their right. Making statements as innocuous as "end racism" would make some people turn their TVs off. You're not going to please everybody, so you might as well be true to yourself.

Biscotti and his owner partners created this confusing situation by wrapping themselves in the flag for a decade. They had military pageants before games and charged the military for the spectacles.

They sold a bill of goods to their fans that the league was one of patriotism.I didn't think it was right when such a big deal was made of Kaepernick's protest. I agree with you that every American has the right to peaceably protest. Also, it's everyone's right to disagree or to take issue with kneeling during the anthem. That's also part of the protest. That's the uncomfortable part of all of this. I agree that most owners would prefer that their guys just play football. It's better for business than releasing statements about racial inequities, and endorsing the demonstrations. In their own way,the NFL owners have created the division that exists between the players and some of its fan base. Most of these owners want to throw money at the issue to placate their players and to move on.

Drew Brees looked like a guy being held hostage to me. He looks like he is fighting himself. The one aspect of this that is so interesting to me is that the NFL is letting everyone make their statements in their own way. I don't have an issue with it, but this is a league that fines guys for having their socks too low or high one week, yet allows the same player to wear pink spikes for a month for breast cancer awareness. I prefer the name on the helmet.

It goes to your point about being true to yourself. Let's face it, the NFL has not been very open about players expressing themselves on the field. ( It's only recently that they have allowed on field celebrations after touchdowns.) Players openly demonstrating on the field about societal inequities is like another world to some fans.

To bring it back to topic.

Tony is a douche.

[The Epic]

What makes you say this?

 

Dude's a businessman. If any amount of money would make this go away for good, he'd pay it, because he'd make that money back in months.

 

That does not mean he isn't down for the cause or won't help. It's that he just feels that racists buy tickets too (and there is a -strong- racist contingent of Ravens fans) and doesn't want to rock the boat.

 

Re: Not Anti-American or Anti-Veteran, I don't think he's given it thought at all. I don't think he's ever NEEDED to, because to him, to most of us, it's just A Thing You Did. Most people (and let's be honest, most white people) have never had to get into that level of nuance. Flag-Troops-America. The end.

[The Epic]

Biscotti and his owner partners created this confusing situation by wrapping themselves in the flag for a decade. They had military pageants before games and charged the military for the spectacles.

They sold a bill of goods to their fans that the league was one of patriotism.I didn't think it was right when such a big deal was made of Kaepernick's protest. I agree with you that every American has the right to peaceably protest. Also, it's everyone's right to disagree or to take issue with kneeling during the anthem. That's also part of the protest. That's the uncomfortable part of all of this. I agree that most owners would prefer that their guys just play football. It's better for business than releasing statements about racial inequities, and endorsing the demonstrations. In their own way,the NFL owners have created the division that exists between the players and some of its fan base. Most of these owners want to throw money at the issue to placate their players and to move on.

Drew Brees looked like a guy being held hostage to me. He looks like he is fighting himself. The one aspect of this that is so interesting to me is that the NFL is letting everyone make their statements in their own way. I don't have an issue with it, but this is a league that fines guys for having their socks too low or high one week, yet allows the same player to wear pink spikes for a month for breast cancer awareness. I prefer the name on the helmet.

It goes to your point about being true to yourself. Let's face it, the NFL has not been very open about players expressing themselves on the field. ( It's only recently that they have allowed on field celebrations after touchdowns.) Players openly demonstrating on the field about societal inequities is like another world to some fans.

To bring it back to topic.

Tony is a douche.

 

I think that this could have been resolved in quite a few ways over quite a bit of time (even if they VEHEMENTLY disagree with the protests), and they've made the wrong call every time. 

 

1) These military demonstrations should never have happened.

2) Give a lukewarm message supporting Kap, let him do his thing, and let him play out the string of his career. 

3) Support your players, and keep your Racist Old Money Opinions to yourself (Jones, Richardson, McNair)

4) Throw gobs of money into every racial equality organization and get that sweet, sweet tax relief.

5) Let players be themselves.

 

ANY of those things alone (maaaaaybe not #4, but definitely the others) would have ended it a while ago. But we're here now and the toothpaste done left the tube. Owners have really never had to think about these problems before, and as such, they went about it all wrong. Talking to their players from jump and not making unilateral decisions probably could have solved everything. But billionaires are billionaires for a reason.

 

BTW I agree with like 98% of your post and I think that's a new record.

[russsnyder]

I think that this could have been resolved in quite a few ways over quite a bit of time (even if they VEHEMENTLY disagree with the protests), and they've made the wrong call every time.

1) These military demonstrations should never have happened.
2) Give a lukewarm message supporting Kap, let him do his thing, and let him play out the string of his career.
3) Support your players, and keep your Racist Old Money Opinions to yourself (Jones, Richardson, McNair)
4) Throw gobs of money into every racial equality organization and get that sweet, sweet tax relief.
5) Let players be themselves.

ANY of those things alone (maaaaaybe not #4, but definitely the others) would have ended it a while ago. But we're here now and the toothpaste done left the tube. Owners have really never had to think about these problems before, and as such, they went about it all wrong. Talking to their players from jump and not making unilateral decisions probably could have solved everything. But billionaires are billionaires for a reason.

BTW I agree with like 98% of your post and I think that's a new record.

By all means like it!

All kidding aside, the NFL should have supported Kaepernick's right to protest at the very least. Instead, the NFL's public stance made it easy for some to cast him as anything from an ingrate to a traitor. Taking away or muting an individual's right to protest is flat out wrong. IMO, that's one of the most important rights that soldiers have fought and died for.

NFL players have a pretty short shelf live. My guess is that the owners felt that once Kaepernick went away they would not have to deal with the kneeling and other protests on a regular basis. Looks like they are going to have to deal with it for a while longer.

[JeremyStrain]

Just trying to give a set place for this stuff. I know events and conversations will trigger this stuff, but lets try to steer it back to this thread so that people can either read and participate or ignore it at will. It's cool if stuff get mentioned other places, but if it turns into an actual back and forth for a while, lets try to shift it here.

 

Thanks!

 

[Old Man]

By all means like it!

All kidding aside, the NFL should have supported Kaepernick's right to protest at the very least. Instead, the NFL's public stance made it easy for some to cast him as anything from an ingrate to a traitor. Taking away or muting an individual's right to protest is flat out wrong. IMO, that's one of the most important rights that soldiers have fought and died for.

NFL players have a pretty short shelf live. My guess is that the owners felt that once Kaepernick went away they would not have to deal with the kneeling and other protests on a regular basis. Looks like they are going to have to deal with it for a while longer.

Kaep played himself out of a job in the NFL by his own skillset level.

He wants to play the martyr role, and poor Kaep.

The NFL is pretty color blind when it comes to the players on the field, if you can play, you will play, for the most part.

[The Epic]

Just trying to give a set place for this stuff. I know events and conversations will trigger this stuff, but lets try to steer it back to this thread so that people can either read and participate or ignore it at will. It's cool if stuff get mentioned other places, but if it turns into an actual back and forth for a while, lets try to shift it here.

 

Thanks!

 

[Old Man]

Wait, what I am chop liver? LOL

If was my idea, as we kept going on the Tony sucks theme. lol

[The Epic]

Wait, what I am chop liver? LOL

If was my idea, as we kept going on the Tony sucks theme. lol

 

   

[Mike in STL]

Dude's a businessman. If any amount of money would make this go away for good, he'd pay it, because he'd make that money back in months.

That does not mean he isn't down for the cause or won't help. It's that he just feels that racists buy tickets too (and there is a -strong- racist contingent of Ravens fans) and doesn't want to rock the boat.

Re: Not Anti-American or Anti-Veteran, I don't think he's given it thought at all. I don't think he's ever NEEDED to, because to him, to most of us, it's just A Thing You Did. Most people (and let's be honest, most white people) have never had to get into that level of nuance. Flag-Troops-America. The end.

Even Michael Jordan says “republicans buy Nike’s too.”

But SB doesn’t seem like a guy riding the fence on this one. Players have openly said that he’s been communicating with them, connecting with them on a personal level, wants to hear from them what he can do. Gave $1M to various reform groups that players active in the community told him need it the most.

On the other hand I saw that Jerry Jones was caught actively looking at which players of his kneeled during the anthem Sunday night.

SB seems like an owner who gets it. Who gets what the NBA walk out was really about. Players calling on ownership to do more with their influence. The Ravens are the only team doing something real, sending a petition to McConnell to push through the George Floyd, Police Justice Bill. It was noted on the preshow when Nate Burelson interviewed Calais Campbell. At least Burelson made it sound like the Ravens are the only team taking actual action which is why he chose Campbell for the interview. He was disappointed other teams haven’t followed the Ravens lead.

If SB isn’t trying to rock the boat, he’s doing a bad job of it. The boat needs to be rocked and if certain people fall off, it’s for the better.

I can’t confirm it, but I had heard LeBron James, who almost fist faught James Harden over being a Trump supporter when they had their meeting after the boycott, was playing Madden the days the NBA sat out. I know he’s done a ton for communities, but he has to know he has more influence, and probably a similar looking bank account as some owners when you consider endorsements. He can’t leave the bubble but he could have easily set something up like the Ravens did with a couple days off and nothing better to do.

If social media is a measure of influence, LeBron has 47M followers. Jeanie Buss has 344K, and she’s basically naked in her profile pic. The Baltimore Ravens team account that puts out statements from Bisciotti has only 1.5M followers.

Owners and players need an open forum with one another when it comes to this stuff instead of the old days where they rule from their ivory towers, or like how Jerry Jones still does. SB is open to this dialogue, word will spread about how class the Ravens organization is through this. Players will speak highly of the environment here, and that could lead to better performance on the field. Which even the oldest crummy owners will ultimately want and if those owners have to have tough conversations with their player to get there, maybe they’ll do it. Doing it, even if it the reason isn’t right, is still doing it. But I think SB is really trying to do right here. The players affected by acts of injustice have outspoken respect for him during this. So I do too.

[The Epic]

Even Michael Jordan says “republicans buy Nike’s too.”

But SB doesn’t seem like a guy riding the fence on this one. Players have openly said that he’s been communicating with them, connecting with them on a personal level, wants to hear from them what he can do. Gave $1M to various reform groups that players active in the community told him need it the most.

On the other hand I saw that Jerry Jones was caught actively looking at which players of his kneeled during the anthem Sunday night.

SB seems like an owner who gets it. Who gets what the NBA walk out was really about. Players calling on ownership to do more with their influence. The Ravens are the only team doing something real, sending a petition to McConnell to push through the George Floyd, Police Justice Bill. It was noted on the preshow when Nate Burelson interviewed Calais Campbell. At least Burelson made it sound like the Ravens are the only team taking actual action which is why he chose Campbell for the interview. He was disappointed other teams haven’t followed the Ravens lead.

If SB isn’t trying to rock the boat, he’s doing a bad job of it. The boat needs to be rocked and if certain people fall off, it’s for the better.

I can’t confirm it, but I had heard LeBron James, who almost fist faught James Harden over being a Trump supporter when they had their meeting after the boycott, was playing Madden the days the NBA sat out. I know he’s done a ton for communities, but he has to know he has more influence, and probably a similar looking bank account as some owners when you consider endorsements. He can’t leave the bubble but he could have easily set something up like the Ravens did with a couple days off and nothing better to do.

If social media is a measure of influence, LeBron has 47M followers. Jeanie Buss has 344K, and she’s basically naked in her profile pic. The Baltimore Ravens team account that puts out statements from Bisciotti has only 1.5M followers.

Owners and players need an open forum with one another when it comes to this stuff instead of the old days where they rule from their ivory towers, or like how Jerry Jones still does. SB is open to this dialogue, word will spread about how class the Ravens organization is through this. Players will speak highly of the environment here, and that could lead to better performance on the field. Which even the oldest crummy owners will ultimately want and if those owners have to have tough conversations with their player to get there, maybe they’ll do it. Doing it, even if it the reason isn’t right, is still doing it. But I think SB is really trying to do right here. The players affected by acts of injustice have outspoken respect for him during this. So I do too.

 

Re: Jordan, it's absolutely clear that in order to maximize your bottom line, you should try to pander to the widest possible base. Unfortunately, a large amount of those people are racist. And the thing about racists is that if you TELL racists that they're racist, the discussion is over and they'll actively fight against you. That's why I think SB is trying to do his best to make sure that sweet, sweet racist money is still coming in. 

 

SB's track record of philanthropy is long. His participation is noted. If it's 100% genuine, I applaud it all; it's useful, no matter his intentions. However, I've heard this story before, with too many names to mention. Several disgraced/racist owners/politicians/CEOs have made massive philanthropic efforts, and then...well...you know. THAT SAID, he does seem to be doing more than most organizations, up to and including his support of the Ravens' most recent initiatives...so maybe, to an extent, he does "get it." But you gotta understand my skepticism here. You don't become super-rich by being an awesome human being.

 

Re: Lebron, he has done a -ton-, especially in the realm of philanthropy and making it easier for people to vote. The initiative he leads, just yesterday, partnered with LiveNation to open large-capacity performance venues in urban areas for voting. And he didn't leave the bubble to do it. 

 

https://sports.yahoo...-190607667.html

 

He was part of the effort to open basketball arenas for voting, as well. Not sure how well that will work (several cities are pushing back), but we will see. 

 

I feel like he sees voting as the cure as opposed to medication, which I vehemently disagree with, but I can't disagree with what he's done. Plus, just to be clear, he's doing this for his own legacy as well. And I have no issue with that, like I have no issue with SB.

[The Epic]

Kaep played himself out of a job in the NFL by his own skillset level.

He wants to play the martyr role, and poor Kaep.

 

This has been refuted so many times that I don't even know if it's worth the effort anymore.