605 replies to this topic

[The Epic]

I can't believe this isn't a source of more outrage. That is incredibly clearly a move to brush this under the rug, IMO.

 

Whoever signed off on earmarking a whopping $24k max for the internal investigation gets fired for cause. If that's Evans and Loh, so be it.

 

I 100% agree. Seriously, wow.

[BSLZackKiesel]

Loh's decision to hire Evans as AD also looks pretty bad now, and screams of an attempt to brush things under the rug and keep everything in-house.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Loh's decision to hire Evans as AD also looks pretty bad now, and screams of an attempt to brush things under the rug and keep everything in-house.

Agree. At best, it's a bad look, and at worst Loh's weak ass attempt to circle the wagons....stupidly, as there was no way this wouldn't eventually get out if true.

And it sure is ironic that UM spent 10x as much on a consultant to find a new AD, and ultimately hired the interim, as they are spending on investigating the death of one of their student-athletes.

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: Five Biggest Legal Questions About the Jordan McNair Fallout at Maryland

[BSLChrisStoner]

Washington Post: Stunned, confused, defiant: Maryland football deals with a scandal that isn’t going away

 

 

Washington Post: ‘They need us to help rebuild’: Amid Maryland football crisis, commits remain committed for now

 

[JeremyStrain]

It absolutely brings credibility.  He was there...  but he's one guy. 

That's why you have to have 3rd party types interviewing everyone on the team now.   Where they can confirm or refute the notion of toxic culture.

Works both ways btw.  There are a number of players on the record countering the story....   but it's not everyone, and they aren't being interviewed by 3rd parties and going over the allegations.

Interviewing the roster(s) as a whole, are the only way you will get a real clear picture imo.

 

Right, of course the ones supporting are going on record, they want the credit for supporting them so they don't get singled out (if all this is true) where anyone on the other side of the fence would become enemy #1. If this whole situation is true, and I really believe it's likely, then this is all playing out exactly like you would suspect.

The more alarming stuff is the amount of stuff being done to supress information (and why I think it's likely true). Hiring Damon as AD when he was the one on the clock for this whole thing. We STILL don't know what KA did to warrant being sent home with pay for 6 months until they could fire him, could VERY likely tie into all this. They set up the "anonymous" internal interviews with a sign up sheet on the coaches door, so that the coaches could see exactly who was signing up to talk, and held the interviews pretty much right in front of the coaches office. That's stacking the deck to make sure players who are afraid of you won't come forward.

 

The tricky part, is with former players, the ones that are on to better careers may not want to speak up for impact it could have on their NEW teams. What would an NFL locker room think if a player came forward complaining about this stuff? Would they turn on him and say you NEVER sell out your coach? Would they get on him for being less of a man? I dunno, but real possibility.

 

This is a tricky investigation, in the sense it's going to be harder than it should to get proof. It's basically all he said, she said, cause I doubt ANYONE has anything on tape. The only real evidence is this death. Which if they are right about it starting at 5 and taking over 45 min to report, is all the smoking gun you need, there's no excuse for that. Even if some of this stuff isn't true, the damage is done to the program. Recruiting is going to be tanked from this, just the rumor of it will be enough to turn kids off from here, at least the highest level ones.

 

I say you clean house. President. AD. Coaching staff. Start over. It's not like this was a program that was contending for a national title.

[Mackus]

I imagine there is lots of tape of practices.  Maybe there is tape of many of these drills as well.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I think with Durkin, there was a real sense that we are on the verge of being a real program finally. I can see the temptation to want to continue that after decades of futility. But ultimately, this is college and you're dealing with unpaid amateur athletes at a place of education. The responsibility to these young men far outweighs the responsibility of "winning".

 

It may be hard for them to "give this all up" when they probably perceive things as being closer than ever, but 10 years from now, if they act with conviction (AKA, top down, everyone involved, a total cleaning of house), they can rely on the things that are great about the university (location, new Cole, UA, etc.) to get back and tell recruits families that when they discover any kind of abuse of their kids, they act with conviction and value their kid over the perception of the program. Fight this anymore, and the ability to say that with a straight face goes out the window.

[Mackus]

This feels similar to the Rutgers basketball coach getting fired.  Except if one of his kids had died.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Right, of course the ones supporting are going on record, they want the credit for supporting them so they don't get singled out (if all this is true) where anyone on the other side of the fence would become enemy #1. If this whole situation is true, and I really believe it's likely, then this is all playing out exactly like you would suspect.

The more alarming stuff is the amount of stuff being done to supress information (and why I think it's likely true). Hiring Damon as AD when he was the one on the clock for this whole thing. We STILL don't know what KA did to warrant being sent home with pay for 6 months until they could fire him, could VERY likely tie into all this. They set up the "anonymous" internal interviews with a sign up sheet on the coaches door, so that the coaches could see exactly who was signing up to talk, and held the interviews pretty much right in front of the coaches office. That's stacking the deck to make sure players who are afraid of you won't come forward.

The tricky part, is with former players, the ones that are on to better careers may not want to speak up for impact it could have on their NEW teams. What would an NFL locker room think if a player came forward complaining about this stuff? Would they turn on him and say you NEVER sell out your coach? Would they get on him for being less of a man? I dunno, but real possibility.

This is a tricky investigation, in the sense it's going to be harder than it should to get proof. It's basically all he said, she said, cause I doubt ANYONE has anything on tape. The only real evidence is this death. Which if they are right about it starting at 5 and taking over 45 min to report, is all the smoking gun you need, there's no excuse for that. Even if some of this stuff isn't true, the damage is done to the program. Recruiting is going to be tanked from this, just the rumor of it will be enough to turn kids off from here, at least the highest level ones.

I say you clean house. President. AD. Coaching staff. Start over. It's not like this was a program that was contending for a national title.

I agree with some of this.

Where I agree:

- Players may want to avoid being singled out. Pressure now to be on either 'side.' That's why they have to be interviewed by 3rd parties.

- Yes, how they set up the previous anonymous interviews was embarrassing.

- It's tricky imo, because it's a lot of different people and not everyone is going to have had the same experiences. You need to interview the whole, to get a better sense.

Where I disagree:

- I don't think the notion that any players on to the NFL would be unwilling to speak up. That seems far-fetched to me.


There remains two different things imo. McNair's death, the allegations of a toxic culture.

What hasn't been proven imo are:

- That they were negligent with McNair's death. (Sounds like they might be, but it's not yet proven... and I saw Mike Randall (former EMT) contradict what McNair's lawyer said should have been step 1 (ice bath). So, I think that has to be looked at further.

- That there no other contributing factors.

- That there is a toxic culture. There is enough in that ESPN article that there should be a 3rd party investigation. There isn't enough in that article for me to say there is definitively a toxic culture.

- If the players confirm a toxic culture exists, then you have to show that that toxic culture was a contributing cause in McNair's death.


For me, the bottom-line remains interviewing the players and letting them tell you what actually exists within the program.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think with Durkin, there was a real sense that we are on the verge of being a real program finally. I can see the temptation to want to continue that after decades of futility. But ultimately, this is college and you're dealing with unpaid amateur athletes at a place of education. The responsibility to these young men far outweighs the responsibility of "winning".

 

It may be hard for them to "give this all up" when they probably perceive things as being closer than ever, but 10 years from now, if they act with conviction (AKA, top down, everyone involved, a total cleaning of house), they can rely on the things that are great about the university (location, new Cole, UA, etc.) to get back and tell recruits families that when they discover any kind of abuse of their kids, they act with conviction and value their kid over the perception of the program. Fight this anymore, and the ability to say that with a straight face goes out the window.

What is fighting?  (I'm not saying this flippantly, I'm asking.)

Completing investigations?

They've suspended Durkin already....     and there is already groups of players and parents of those players who are out supporting Durkin.


Interview the roster as a whole.  It really can't be that hard to do so.
And have those interviews done by someone not connected with the University.  Gather facts and go from there.

[You Play to Win the Game]

What is fighting? (I'm not saying this flippantly, I'm asking.)

Completing investigations?

They've suspended Durkin already.... and there is already groups of players and parents of those players who are out supporting Durkin.


Interview the roster as a whole. It really can't be that hard to do so.
And have those interviews done by someone not connected with the University. Gather facts and go from there.

Why have you continued to completely ignore the sham that was/is our internal investigation? That is a fireable offense in and of itself. I want to know why you obviously don't think it's important whatsoever. You just continue to say, "it needs to be investigated"... well, no shit. They should've been "gathering facts" (rather than seemingly running from them) since McNair's death.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Why have you continued to completely ignore the sham that was/is our internal investigation? That is a fireable offense in and of itself. I want to know why you obviously don't think it's important whatsoever. You just continue to say, "it needs to be investigated"... well, no shit.

I continue to say it needs to be investigated by 3rd parties.

There already was an ongoing investigation. 

If you want to say they should have dictated more money to it, yep absolutely agree.

If you want to say they should have turned that investigation over to a 3rd party, yep absolutely agree. (And do it now if they haven't already.)

But sham investigation? Don't think that is proven either.
Does it look like they tried to sweep things under the rug? Has that look.  But that isn't proven either.

I would say it's an offense worthy of being fired to not have set up that internal investigation better even if it's not a sham though. I don't know who today is the right person for that firing.

MD's Athletic Department and University as a whole has typically been pretty strident. Lots of things which have been swept under at other places have typically not been at MD. Resulting in players not being available, losing scholarships, etc. 


So Friday night MD had new allegations against them.
They've suspended several people, including their Head Coach.

You're take is that is not enough?

They shouldn't have a completed investigation? They shouldn't go an interview the roster as a whole?



 

[Nigel Tufnel]

Has anybody actually disputed any of the facts that were reported about how players were treated, or are they just resorting to attacking the sources?

 

Whoever was in charge of that sham of an initial investigation needs to be fired - I'm assuming that's either the AD or HC, or possibly both.

 

And whatever training staff was at the practice where McNair died is either responsible or incompetent, so I think they need to go, too.

[JeremyStrain]

I agree with some of this.

Where I agree:

- Players may want to avoid being singled out. Pressure now to be on either 'side.' That's why they have to be interviewed by 3rd parties.

- Yes, how they set up the previous anonymous interviews was embarrassing.

- It's tricky imo, because it's a lot of different people and not everyone is going to have had the same experiences. You need to interview the whole, to get a better sense.

Where I disagree:

- I don't think the notion that any players on to the NFL would be unwilling to speak up. That seems far-fetched to me.


There remains two different things imo. McNair's death, the allegations of a toxic culture.

What hasn't been proven imo are:

- That they were negligent with McNair's death. (Sounds like they might be, but it's not yet proven... and I saw Mike Randall (former EMT) contradict what McNair's lawyer said should have been step 1 (ice bath). So, I think that has to be looked at further.

- That there no other contributing factors.

- That there is a toxic culture. There is enough in that ESPN article that there should be a 3rd party investigation. There isn't enough in that article for me to say there is definitively a toxic culture.

- If the players confirm a toxic culture exists, then you have to show that that toxic culture was a contributing cause in McNair's death.


For me, the bottom-line remains interviewing the players and letting them tell you what actually exists within the program.

 

The root behind the way these toxic cultures work is that no one wants to speak up or report it. It's abuse. Just like child abuse or spousal abuse, getting it reported is the hard part. It's a situation where if you speak up, and it doesn't get handled 100%, which often they don't, look at all the chances people are willing to give to let them out of culpability, then retribution is a real fear. Now people that have studied these abuse issues know that fear of retribution in itself is a sign of existence, but in general people want to chalk it up to paranoia. That being said...there is some degree of this behavior DRENCHED throughout sports. The problem being that for generations not only have we been taught to ignore it, but we have been taught that this is the accepted and preferred behavior and it makes us better. People honestly believe that the job of a trainer is to push you when you want to give up. There's a HUGE difference in mentally wanting to give up and your body telling you it has had enough, and it's supposed to be the job of a REAL trainer to know those and be on hand to judge which is which.

 

The problem with the negligence/intentional issue isn't in the what should have happened in the TREATMENT, Randall is probably exactly right there, the problem is that they refused to let it get to the TREATMENT stage and weren't doing their job which is to watch out for dangerous conditions. They were more worried about yelling at kids to push harder than they were about seeing a kid is seriously at risk. That's a major fail. We as parents, hopefully, aren't looking at these kids as paydays waiting to happen, but as our KIDS, and we are trusting these coaches to watch over them and their wellbeing when we can't. That hasn't just been exposed in all this, but the idea of it has been DESTROYED here.

 

Separate out the death and the toxicity rumors. The death alone is enough that all involved should be a lot more than given a slap on the wrist. This wasn't cause a kid was working out too hard on his own without supervision, or was taking supplements he shouldn't have at practice, this was a case of a kid being pushed past what is safe, and none of the adults trusted to keep this from happening did anything about it. I mean if they can't do the basic job of keeping their players alive, then they sure as hell shouldn't be getting paid millions of dollars to be a college coach.

 

With the toxicity stuff, it's easy to say that is what led directly to the death, and it's just as easy to say I want proof. But you also have to think what kind of proof are you asking for? Isn't that giving them a little too much slack saying that you want it proven that they directly contributed to a kid's death? I mean who was in charge of practice? Did it happen? As long as there isn't something obvious that shows there's nothing they could have done, then yeah, this is on them and the fact that people want to give them benefit of the doubt is amazing to me. The burden of proof shouldn't be on the dead kid's family, it should be on the people in charge that are supposed to be keeping them safe above all. The toxic stuff is second fiddle to me. But given the few details that have come out already, it's enough to say coaches should be fired.

 

The problem with this stuff and sports is that with sports we have fandom and that tends to build extra slack into decisions, and people worry about the future of the team. Well take this whole situation out of sports, and say this is a teacher teaching a high school PE class. This kid dies on their watch, same conditions, do you feel the same way about waiting to see how much proof comes about or is the death enough for you to know they shouldn't work there?

[BSLChrisStoner]

@SECfootball 20m20 minutes ago

Paul Finebaum ‘dumbfounded’ at Will Muschamp’s comments about Maryland’s DJ Durkin

 

@SBNationCFB 2h2 hours ago

Suspended head coaches like DJ Durkin and Urban Meyer haven't always been fired in the end:
https://www.sbnation...es-fired-resign

 

@Deadspin 2h2 hours ago

Fuck these motherfuckers: http://deadsp.in/aHtvKa3

 

The Washington Times: DJ Durkin has 'full support' of some Maryland players' parents: 'This is a football culture'
https://www.washingt..._medium=twitter

[NewMarketSean]

I'm not a big MD football fan so I don't really have any stake in this but the nucleus of this whole story is the death of a player due to either unsafe practice conditions or carelessness of the trainers. I think it's fair for coach to be put on leave until investigation is finished to find out who is responsible for his death. I think the style of coaching is unnecessary but I agree that it happens across the board and even in HS. I think it went to extremes at times and it sounds like the assistant coach is the one to blame for most of it. Either way this is a bad look for MD and probably ends with Durkin's dismissal. In today's hyper-sensitive age it's rare someone survives something like this due to PR blowback and Durkin is still guilty by association which is also something that is happening a lot lately.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Has anybody actually disputed any of the facts that were reported about how players were treated, or are they just attacking the sources?

 

Whoever was in charge of that sham of an initial investigation needs to be fired - I'm assuming that's either the AD or HC, or possibly both.

 

And whatever training staff was at the practice where McNair died is either responsible or incompetent, so I think they need to go, too.

The ESPN report had 2 former players on the record, and some anonymous sources.

There has been far more people on the record refuting the culture ESPN described. 

However, that's not enough either.  It's a small sample.  That's why you have to interview everyone.


I basically agree with the 2nd and 3rd sentences.  One caveat being there are reports that there was no autopsy, which if true makes it harder to determine if there were contributing factors.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Yeah, it sounds like the staff might have only tortured players that they wanted to get rid of, so it makes sense that the complaints are coming from former players, and that guys who weren't targeted might feel differently.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I continue to say it needs to be investigated by 3rd parties.

There already was an ongoing investigation. 

If you want to say they should have dictated more money to it, yep absolutely agree.

If you want to say they should have turned that investigation over to a 3rd party, yep absolutely agree. (And do it now if they haven't already.)

But sham investigation? Don't think that is proven either.
Does it look like they tried to sweep things under the rug? Has that look.  But that isn't proven either.

I would say it's an offense worthy of being fired to not have set up that internal investigation better even if it's not a sham though. I don't know who today is the right person for that firing.

MD's Athletic Department and University as a whole has typically been pretty strident. Lots of things which have been swept under at other places have typically not been at MD. Resulting in players not being available, losing scholarships, etc. 


So Friday night MD had new allegations against them.
They've suspended several people, including their Head Coach.

You're take is that is not enough?

They shouldn't have a completed investigation? They shouldn't go an interview the roster as a whole?

Chris - Come on. You're trying to skirt around the FACT that the program tried to brush this under the rug with a $24k investigation in which players had to sign up to speak on a list that was posted on the coaches door, and meetings held very close to the coaches office. That is awful. There's no justifying it.

 

From Loh on down, no one thought to step up and say, NO - we have to treat this with integrity and get to the bottom of how a kid lost his life and how we can ensure it never happens again. No one had that conviction. We don't need another investigation to tell us that much.