129 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: Is LeBron James the Greatest of All-Time?

https://www.si.com/n...me-nba-playoffs

[SBTarheel]

Yes. 

[B00E00N00]

He's closing the ground, not there yet IMO.

[Mike in STL]

When was this article written. 2012?

[mweb08]

Kevin Pelton weighs in...

 

http://www.espn.com/...-nba-player-all

 

And I'll mention the Backpicks series again, which I created a thread for and IMO is the best examination of the GOAT rankings I've seen.

[SportsGuy]

The reason this is even a discussion is those few years MJ missed.  If he doesn't miss those years, this isn't really much of a discussion.

 

That being said, he did miss those years and that does hurt him some.

[mweb08]

The reason this is even a discussion is those few years MJ missed.  If he doesn't miss those years, this isn't really much of a discussion.

 

That being said, he did miss those years and that does hurt him some.

 

That's a big reason why it's a discussion right now instead of down the road.

 

But as I said before, he choose to miss those years so it's not like he should get extra credit like if he went off to war like Ted Williams. 

 

That first retirement also helped he and the Bulls play better during that second 3-peat IMO.

[SportsGuy]

That's a big reason why it's a discussion right now instead of down the road.

But as I said before, he choose to miss those years so it's not like he should get extra credit like if he went off to war like Ted Williams.

That first retirement also helped he and the Bulls play better during that second 3-peat IMO.

Disagree with the last part...but yes, it was his choice, so that does hurt him.

[You Play to Win the Game]

They both completely dominate(d) their competition. Not trolling, but I just don't see a lot of difference at this point. I know a more objective analysis goes much deeper, but they both are(were) completely dominant individually.

[mweb08]

Disagree with the last part...but yes, it was his choice, so that does hurt him.

 

Well there are two very obvious benefits to the time off: the reduction in wear and tear / fatigue and the increase in motivation for the 3-peat for not just himself, but the team as it's hard to stay at or near peak motivation for that many consecutive years when you're the best team. 

 

I guess you think there is enough costs on the other side to offset those benefits.

[SportsGuy]

Well there are two very obvious benefits to the time off: the reduction in wear and tear / fatigue and the increase in motivation for the 3-peat for not just himself, but the team as it's hard to stay at or near peak motivation for that many consecutive years when you're the best team.

I guess you think there is enough costs on the other side to offset those benefits.

MJ may be the most competitive athlete ever. No extra motivation will ever be needed for him.

As for wear and tear...maybe. No reason to say anything definitive there. He was always in good shape and was a very durable guy. I don’t buy that as any kind of real excuse in terms of him being better than he would have had he played those 2 years.

[mweb08]

MJ may be the most competitive athlete ever. No extra motivation will ever be needed for him.

As for wear and tear...maybe. No reason to say anything definitive there. He was always in good shape and was a very durable guy. I don’t buy that as any kind of real excuse in terms of him being better than he would have had he played those 2 years.

 

So he was incredibly competitive; however, how do you square that with him retiring in the middle of his prime after winning 3 straight titles? Unless you're going to attribute that to conspiracy theories, motivation has to prominently factor in. 

 

I also said team motivation, which is an obvious benefit as its easier to get the rest of the team in the mental state to win 72 regular season games when you aren't on the other side of winning however many titles in a row.

 

Wear and tear plus fatigue are also quite obvious and another potential factor in his choice to retire. Everyone says that going to the Finals 3 straight years is mentally and physically grueling. That doesn't mean he would have broken down or that they would have necessarily lost in any of those 3 years, but be able to avoid those 160 or so games is obviously a plus. 

[SportsGuy]

A plus doesn’t mean it would have effected him if the alternative had happened..see LeBron.

I feel it’s more likely he wins 8 straight titles than the stuff you are worried about hurts him.

These are non issues except for the fact that he lost those 2 years in his prime and that does matter in this discussion..even though LBJ still loses.

[mweb08]

A plus doesn’t mean it would have effected him if the alternative had happened..see LeBron.

I feel it’s more likely he wins 8 straight titles than the stuff you are worried about hurts him.

These are non issues except for the fact that he lost those 2 years in his prime and that does matter in this discussion..even though LBJ still loses.

 

We of course don't know what would happened, but those benefits shouldn't be dismissed.. 

 

I don't really have much of an issue ignoring those points as long as people don't frame that retirement as a net neutral or even positive for MJ in any discussion of his career value or greatness, because losing most of 2 years of one's prime by choice is a negative as you acknowledge.

 

What the Bulls did without him is certainly relevant to the conversation, though. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

KVV: Michael Jordan convinced an entire generation of sports fans (and athletes) that “greatness” had to be a joyless, obsessive, faux-Alpha, corporate endeavor that required humiliating opponents, and 90 percent of bad sports takes can be traced back to people treating it as gospel. https://t.co/fIQZ9dltRL

[Dr. FLK]

It's tough since we are all so far removed from this.  And, the fact the the 90s were my prime NBA-fandom years, I'm clearly biased towards MJ.  My gut feeling (based off nothing concrete...only memories) is that MJ's defense was far surperior.  LBJ is a + defender - and he gets all the highlight real blocks.  But MJ would take it as a challenge to guard and destroy the top defender on whatever team he played.  Again - I'll say it's possible that this is nothing more than revisionist history from a guy who worked at Footlocker in the 90s and had a billion pairs of Jordan's.  But, I believe that his defense - and his ability to totally redefine his game from a high-flyer to an unstoppable post presence - give him the edge (albeit a mush slighter edge than I would have said years ago),

 

And, just to make Seth happy...I'll add in that I really, really hate LBJ's in-game whining, flopping, and overall euro-soccer style of self-induced midde-school-esque drama.

[bnickle]

KVV: Michael Jordan convinced an entire generation of sports fans (and athletes) that “greatness” had to be a joyless, obsessive, faux-Alpha, corporate endeavor that required humiliating opponents, and 90 percent of bad sports takes can be traced back to people treating it as gospel. https://t.co/fIQZ9dltRL

Who?

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: Shaq: LeBron Doesn't Need to Chase Rings Anymore

[BSLChrisStoner]

ESPN: NBA GOAT debate: Big questions on Michael Jordan and the greatest players ever
https://www.espn.com...st-players-ever

[Mike B]

ESPN: NBA GOAT debate: Big questions on Michael Jordan and the greatest players ever
https://www.espn.com...st-players-ever

IMO, impossible to be sure who is the best of All time in any sport, but a pretty sound argument can be made for Jordan.

 

As a kid, I saw Baylor, Wilt and my favorite Earl the Pearl Monroe in person, and an argument can be made for a few of them.