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NBA GOAT Debate


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#41 SportsGuy

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 06:05 AM

For the 11-40 range:

Overrated: Iverson, Kawhi/Giannis (lacking longevity)

Underrated: CP3, Nash, Garnett


Curry top 15?

I can see it but part of me thinks that’s a little high, especially since he had a lot of injury issues and has little to no defensive value.

I don’t have an issue with Kwahi being 25th. He probably will end up much higher, so him being where he is ranked now is adjusted for longevity imo.

Agree about Giannis.

I kind of feel that Harden is ranked too high too.

Until Harden wins something, how much better is he than Carmelo? Yes I would take Harden over Melo but both are great scorers. Harden the better passer, Melo the better rebounder. Neither play defense. Neither have won anything.

#42 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 06:38 AM

ESPN: Ranking the top 74 NBA players of all time: Nos. 10-1
https://www.espn.com...rs-all-nos-10-1



#43 SportsGuy

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 08:43 AM

Do we underrate or overrate Shaq?

On one hand, I think he’s as dominant a player as their ever has been.

OTOH, his FT shooting was an issue, he should have been an even better rebounder than he was and his defense wasn’t that great.

I probably take Olajuwon over him but I’m also not sure I take Russell or Wilt over him either.

#44 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 08:48 AM

Curry top 15?

I can see it but part of me thinks that’s a little high, especially since he had a lot of injury issues and has little to no defensive value.

I don’t have an issue with Kwahi being 25th. He probably will end up much higher, so him being where he is ranked now is adjusted for longevity imo.

Agree about Giannis.

I kind of feel that Harden is ranked too high too.

Until Harden wins something, how much better is he than Carmelo? Yes I would take Harden over Melo but both are great scorers. Harden the better passer, Melo the better rebounder. Neither play defense. Neither have won anything.


Curry has had one of the very few best offensive peaks in NBA history and of course he has winning on his side too. He's also not bad defensively at all, but yes, obviously that's not a strength of his. Longevity is a valid issue to bring up, though.

I think Harden is significantly better than Carmelo. He should have 6 1st All NBA's after this year compared to Melo's 0 (2 2nd team, 4 3rd team). Harden has an MVP and finished 2nd 3 times while Melo was only in the top 5 once (3rd). Also, there's a very strong argument that Harden should be a multiple time MVP winner.

As for the winning argument, we know that we think about that differently, but there are other guys without titles ranked around him (Paul, Ewing, Nash, Iverson, Stockton, Giannis) plus Charles, Baylor, and Malone ranked a fair amount higher.

Really, Harden is pretty similar to a guard version of Barkley and Malone.

He like them had some bad moments in the playoffs, but they had to get through MJ and the Bulls throughout most of the 90's, and he had to deal with the best team ever when his Rockets were primed to contend, and they probably would have won a chip if CP3 didn't get hurt against the Warriors.

Btw, his defense has mostly been solid throughout his career. He had a stretch where he was notoriously slacking, but the Internet shaming him actually resulted in better effort recently. Plus he's always been a great post defender for a guard and has great hands that lead to a lot of steals and deflections (he's been elite with that the last 2-3 years).

#45 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:08 AM

Do we underrate or overrate Shaq?

On one hand, I think he’s as dominant a player as their ever has been.

OTOH, his FT shooting was an issue, he should have been an even better rebounder than he was and his defense wasn’t that great.

I probably take Olajuwon over him but I’m also not sure I take Russell or Wilt over him either.


Shaq should be above Kobe, Bird, Wilt, and maybe Magic IMO.

#46 SportsGuy

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:23 AM

Bird is another one.

He was probably as skilled as any player ever...in terms of passing, ball handling and shooting.

But the back issues definitely shortened his career some and I don’t believe he was known much for his defense (not entirely sure about that one though)

I think he’s great but ahead of Kobe and some of the others?

Not sure I see that.

You can give him extra points for what he and Magic did for the sport and how they took it to a different level and started helping with TV deals and things like that but I think that is a different discussion.

#47 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:35 AM

CBS Sports Top 15
15 Jerry West

14 Julius Erving
13 Stephen Curry
12 Oscar Robertson

11 Hakeem Olajuwon

10 Kobe Bryant

9 Tim Duncan

8 Larry Bird

7 Shaq O'Neal

6 Wilt Chamberlain

5 Magic Johnson

4 Bill Russell 

3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2 LeBron James

1 Michael Jordan

 

ESPN Top 15 

15 Julius Erving

14 Kevin Durant

13 Stephen Curry

12 Hakeem Olajuwon

11 Oscar Robertson

10 Shaq O'Neal

9 Kobe Bryant

8 Tim Duncan

7 Larry Bird

6 Wilt Chamberlain
5 Magic Johnson

4 Bill Russell

3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2 LeBron James

1 Michael Jordan



#48 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:37 AM

ESPN: Overrated? Underrated? Our experts debate the top 74 players in NBA history
https://www.espn.com...ers-nba-history



#49 SportsGuy

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:41 AM

Olajuwon is an underrated guy.

Definitely top 10 imo.

Maybe closer to top 5 than 10.

#50 Mike B

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 10:05 AM

Olajuwon is an underrated guy.

Definitely top 10 imo.

Maybe closer to top 5 than 10.

The Dream certainly is a top 10.  IMO, the best footwork of any big man, that I ever saw.


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#51 SBTarheel

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:23 PM

With all due respect, Olujawon is better than Shaq. He's top 8-10 to me. 

 

I know we've all discussed this over the years. 


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#52 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:34 PM

Ben Taylor, the author of the fantastic Backpicks GOAT series, is really high on both Hakeem and Shaq, ranking them 6th and 5th respectively.
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#53 SBTarheel

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:53 PM

Ben Taylor, the author of the fantastic Backpicks GOAT series, is really high on both Hakeem and Shaq, ranking them 6th and 5th respectively.

I just adore Hakeem. Always have. 


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#54 Mike B

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 12:59 PM

With all due respect, Olujawon is better than Shaq. He's top 8-10 to me. 

 

I know we've all discussed this over the years. 

Yea, I always thought the dream was better than Shaq.  Both could be unstoppable, but the Dream had more weapons.


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#55 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:02 PM

Shaq was easily a better offensive player IMO, but Hakeem had a similarly significant edge on defense.

#56 Mike B

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:09 PM

They were really different types of players.  Presicion vs. Power.

 

The Dream was so technically sound, while Shaq was just overwhelming.

 

The same arguments used to be made about Wilt and Russell


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#57 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:20 PM

They were really different types of players. Presicion vs. Power.

The Dream was so technically sound, while Shaq was just overwhelming.

The same arguments used to be made about Wilt and Russell


Well Russell wasn't a prolific scorer like all those other guys. He is probably the best defensive player ever, though. Plus, maybe the best leader and teammate ever.

Btw, Shaq was way more skilled than many seem to give him credit for. He had legit moves to go along with incredible agility and athleticism for a man of his size, and he was a very good passing big man.



#58 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:28 PM

Well Russell wasn't a prolific scorer like all those other guys. He is probably the best defensive player ever, though. Plus, maybe the best leader and teammate ever.

Btw, Shaq was way more skilled than many seem to give him credit for. He had legit moves to go along with incredible agility and athleticism for a man of his size, and he was a very good passing big man.

 

 

Good Lord, look who he was guarding.  

 

"Best leader" and "teammate" are incredibly subjective.  He was a good leader because he won a lot?  With a stacked roster prior to free agency?  In a league with like 7 other teams?  

 

Russell and Pippen are close competitors for most overrated NBA players of all time IMO and for someone who dismisses the "ringz" argument, Weber, I am surprised you think so highly of him, especially given the environment he was winning titles in.


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

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#59 Pedro Cerrano

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:29 PM



Pippen was great.

 

Gag


There is baseball, and occasionally there are other things of note

"Now OPS sucks.  Got it."

"Making his own olive brine is peak Mackus."

"I'm too hungover to watch a loss." - McNulty

@bopper33


#60 mweb08

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 01:44 PM

Good Lord, look who he was guarding.

"Best leader" and "teammate" are incredibly subjective. He was a good leader because he won a lot? With a stacked roster prior to free agency? In a league with like 7 other teams?

Russell and Pippen are close competitors for most overrated NBA players of all time IMO and for someone who dismisses the "ringz" argument, Weber, I am surprised you think so highly of him, especially given the environment he was winning titles in.


I've read a lot on this topic and I've come around a ton on Russell over the years. I used to be closer to your opinion, but I've adjusted with the new evidence (new to me at least).

Once again, Ben Taylor, who is also not a big Ringz guy explains his greatness (or anyone else's for that matter) better than I can:

https://backpicks.co...3-bill-russell/

People should really check these out if they want a better grasp of the all-time greats as players.




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