41 replies to this topic

[JordanKough]

Jim Harbaugh is a really good coach. I don't need to see him in the league for years to know that. John has ridden Flacco's back to an extent. To be fair Belichick has done the same with Brady, Dungy with Manning,etc,etc.

Let me see his bounce back year. Tougher schedule this year. Lot's of things to think San Fran isn't as good as they were last year.

What John has, and I think is being underrated a bit, is several years now of a solid ship. Once Ray leaves, if this team sustains success, I think it's pretty hard not to say that he could go to a poor and make them a better one fairly quickly.

Then again, like you said...if you have a QB with talent, it's hard to see the forest for the trees.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Jim Harbaugh is a really good coach. I don't need to see him in the league for years to know that. John has ridden Flacco's back to an extent. To be fair Belichick has done the same with Brady, Dungy with Manning,etc,etc.

John has ridden Flacco's back? Are you saying this with a straight face? Flacco is NOT Brady or Manning.

[SportsGuy]

John has ridden Flacco's back? Are you saying this with a straight face? Flacco is NOT Brady or Manning.

How many great coaches, in all sports, haven't ridden the backs of great players?

Pretty poor statement there by BNick.

[ravens8589]

How many great coaches, in all sports, haven't ridden the backs of great players?

Pretty poor statement there by BNick.

Good point. All great coaches have had great players. It's the way it is. Look at the last few Cleveland Brown coaches. Can you name one GREAT player they coached? I really can't. Ricker said that Flacco isn't Brady or Manning which is absolutely true but Joe is a QB you could ride to victory so the statement made by Bnick is valid but that's how it is in all sports.

[SportsGuy]

Good point. All great coaches have had great players. It's the way it is. Look at the last few Cleveland Brown coaches. Can you name one GREAT player they coached? I really can't. Ricker said that Flacco isn't Brady or Manning which is absolutely true but Joe is a QB you could ride to victory so the statement made by Bnick is valid but that's how it is in all sports.

YEa, its valid...but Bnick meant that as a strike against Harbaugh.

[Tucker Blair]

John is a good coach that many teams would wish they had.

That's about all I really care about. He fits here, and has kept the success rolling from the Billick era.
At the end of the day, I can't think of many more than a small handful of coaches that I think do a better overall job.

[ravens8589]

John is a good coach that many teams would wish they had.

That's about all I really care about. He fits here, and has kept the success rolling from the Billick era.
At the end of the day, I can't think of many more than a small handful of coaches that I think do a better overall job.

That's really my opinion too. We win, so what does it matter with all of the little things?

[bnickle]

John has ridden Flacco's back? Are you saying this with a straight face? Flacco is NOT Brady or Manning.

No, he's not.However he's the biggest reason for our stability the last 4 years, not Harbaugh. I think you could put a number of coaches in Harbaugh's position the last 4 years and gotten similar results. Of course all great coaches need good players.

[You Play to Win the Game]

No, he's not.However he's the biggest reason for our stability the last 4 years, not Harbaugh. I think you could put a number of coaches in Harbaugh's position the last 4 years and gotten similar results. Of course all great coaches need good players.

There's no way to quantify who is the "biggest reason for our stability", and Flacco has been pretty consistent, but not great enough where you can easily say that he is (IE: Not Manning or Brady), so to say that Harbaugh has been riding on Flacco's back is just a ridiculous statement.

[bnickle]

There's no way to quantify who is the "biggest reason for our stability", and Flacco has been pretty consistent, but not great enough where you can easily say that he is (IE: Not Manning or Brady), so to say that Harbaugh has been riding on Flacco's back is just a ridiculous statement.

I disagree. To me Flacco is clearly the difference in our consistent from '8-'11 vs '04-'07. I mean basically 2 big changes in that time frame. QB and HC and Harbaugh isn't a better coach than Billick. Certainly not enough of one to make the team a deep playoff team every year.

I'm not saying Harbaugh is a bad coach, I already said he'd be in my 8-12 range. And not trying to rehash a Billick debate either. If lockerroom reports are correct and he lost the team he needed to go dispite being a good coach. It's my belief that a lot of fans in general in Baltimore overrate Harbaugh while seemingly underrate Flacco.

I won't even get into an argument I could make that Cameron and by extension Harbaugh has actually held Joe down to a point.

[ravens8589]

I disagree. To me Flacco is clearly the difference in our consistent from '8-'11 vs '04-'07. I mean basically 2 big changes in that time frame. QB and HC and Harbaugh isn't a better coach than Billick. Certainly not enough of one to make the team a deep playoff team every year.

I'm not saying Harbaugh is a bad coach, I already said he'd be in my 8-12 range. And not trying to rehash a Billick debate either. If lockerroom reports are correct and he lost the team he needed to go dispite being a good coach. It's my belief that a lot of fans in general in Baltimore overrate Harbaugh while seemingly underrate Flacco.

I won't even get into an argument I could make that Cameron and by extension Harbaugh has actually held Joe down to a point.

Here is where I strongly disagree. Harbs is a better coach than Billick. Don't get me wrong, I liked Billick but Billick was not stern enough with his team and therefore lacked consistency. He was the "players coach" but the team really didn't have as much discipline under him. Since then the penalties have cut down from what I have seen. Harbs is not as bad with challenges as you'd like to make it seem. I don't have numbers to back this stuff up but I'm going from what I've seen. This team just seems more disciplined under Harbs. I agree that Flacco has been underrated but I disagree when you say Harbs is overrated. I have heard a little clamoring that if we don't get to the Super bowl or what not, he should lose his job. I'm not saying this is the general thought but there have been grumblings of it. Billick is a good coach, I vouched that Buffalo should have hired him over Gailey a few years back, but I believe Harbs has succeeded in many regards in whch Billick failed with this team.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I disagree. To me Flacco is clearly the difference in our consistent from '8-'11 vs '04-'07. I mean basically 2 big changes in that time frame. QB and HC and Harbaugh isn't a better coach than Billick. Certainly not enough of one to make the team a deep playoff team every year.

I'm not saying Harbaugh is a bad coach, I already said he'd be in my 8-12 range. And not trying to rehash a Billick debate either. If lockerroom reports are correct and he lost the team he needed to go dispite being a good coach. It's my belief that a lot of fans in general in Baltimore overrate Harbaugh while seemingly underrate Flacco.

I won't even get into an argument I could make that Cameron and by extension Harbaugh has actually held Joe down to a point.

We've had mediocre offenses every season, so I just don't get it. The most productive part in those offenses has been Ray Rice, so hasn't he been riding on Rice's back too? Flacco is certainly a key part of it, as it the defense. But you said it in the context of slighting Harbaugh. It was a silly thing to say.

[bnickle]

The dicipline thing I agree with and I had that has a big check for Harbaugh. Though I'm convinced at this point a lot of that fell on Rex Ryan while he was DC. Billick's early year teams didn't have a big problem in that regard while Harbaugh's '08 team was pretty bad in that regard. I like some of the things Rex brings but I'm convinced he had become somewhat of a cancer in this organization.

And obviously Harbaugh should not lose his job here anytime soon despite how the team does this year. There are always going to be extreme opinions from fans.

[bnickle]

We've had mediocre offenses every season, so I just don't get it. The most productive part in those offenses has been Ray Rice, so hasn't he been riding on Rice's back too? Flacco is certainly a key part of it, as it the defense. But you said it in the context of slighting Harbaugh. It was a silly thing to say.

You have to look beyond the pure offensive numbers. Flacco is extremely underrated compared to his raw stats and his raw stats have been pretty good anyway,especially compared to the QBs in Baltimore before him. The perception of Joe is a game manager but that just isn't true. He's certainly been inconsistent at times but he's many times been a difference maker in games.

[You Play to Win the Game]

You have to look beyond the pure offensive numbers. Flacco is extremely underrated compared to his raw stats and his raw stats have been pretty good anyway,especially compared to the QBs in Baltimore before him. The perception of Joe is a game manager but that just isn't true. He's certainly been inconsistent at times but he's many times been a difference maker in games.

That's your opinion, but it's very subjective. Regardless of how he is overrated, I just can't see how that can have anything to do with Harbaugh's status. Your logic is very inconsistent when rating Flacco and Harbaugh, it's amazing that you can't see that, or just chose to ignore it.

[bnickle]

That's your opinion, but it's very subjective. Regardless of how he is overrated, I just can't see how that can have anything to do with Harbaugh's status. Your logic is very inconsistent when rating Flacco and Harbaugh, it's amazing that you can't see that, or just chose to ignore it.

No it comes down to the fact that Joe plays the single most important position in all of team sports.

[You Play to Win the Game]

No it comes down to the fact that Joe plays the single most important position in all of team sports.

And was 15th last season in ESPN's QBR, and 17th in QB Rating. I do think he's better than that, or at least can be, but he is just not someone you give credit for and say everyone else is along for the ride.

[bnickle]

And was 15th last season in ESPN's QBR, and 17th in QB Rating. I do think he's better than that, or at least can be, but he is just not someone you give credit for and say everyone else is along for the ride.

And I said he wasn't elite, nor has he carried a team, He's been good enough to be the biggest reason for this teams success over the last 4 years. Not the only reason but the biggest one. I bet Harbaugh would even admit that.

[You Play to Win the Game]

And I said he wasn't elite, nor has he carried a team, He's been good enough to be the biggest reason for this teams success over the last 4 years. Not the only reason but the biggest one. I bet Harbaugh would even admit that.

OK, fair enough. I disagree, but fair enough regardless. Sorry if I came across as a bit hostile earlier when I initially engaged you about this.

[Oriole85]

Jim Harbaugh is a really good coach. I don't need to see him in the league for years to know that. John has ridden Flacco's back to an extent. To be fair Belichick has done the same with Brady, Dungy with Manning,etc,etc.

This is the whole debate -- how much is it the coach?, how much is it the players? No matter how "good' the coach is I think they need some talent at their disposal for success.

Good players always make the coaches look better, fair or unfair.