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Would YOU Trade Dylan Bundy For Felix Hernandez- Today?


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Poll: Would YOU make the trade outlined in the OP? (20 member(s) have cast votes)

Would YOU make the trade outlined in the OP?

  1. No (15 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  2. Yes (5 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

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#41 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:27 AM

If people feel strongly enough in their ability to say whether a prospect has a good chance of making it or not, I wish they would actually come out and put themselves out there about it. Most message board fans will agree with or take whatever the national guys say as gospel, but then be completely pessimistic about it at the same time. If you feel strongly enough to be pessimistic about a prospect, back it up with your opinion why or why not.

It's just a negative attitude brought on by all the failure around here, but it's really easy to throw stones when someone makes a prediction or evaluation of a guy when you don't offer anything up yourself you know.

(Speaking in generalities about the boards)


The negativity you are talking about, is not about posters doubting Bundy. It really is just people looking at the law of averages of all prospects across the game. I don't think you could find anyone anywhere that is not excited about Bundy's potential. I'm sure nearly all would bet that Bundy would reach multiple All-Star games.

I think you reached the level where people would start to bet against Bundy, when you stated he will be a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball for 5-10 years. It is not people questioning Bundy's ability to reach that level, it is people questioning the chances of any pitcher reaching and sustaining that level for that period of time.

#42 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:32 AM

I get that, but you have to go by what you think and what you believe will happen. You can't worry about what you can't predict that MIGHT happen. You're going to be wrong sometimes, and if you're good you're going to be right sometimes, but it just seems people are so afraid to be wrong that they only want to give a pessimistic view "oh well this could happen, and this might happen" when you should be saying, based on what I've seen and heard I think he'll do this. If you're wrong later, so be it, but everyone can't just keep assuming everyone is going to bust because the odds are generally more in favor of that. It's like staying on every hand of blackjack because you know the dealer might bust on 3 cards.

Again, not just at you, just in general. This kinda stuff has just bothered me for a few years now. Didn't mean to rant in your direction.
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#43 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:34 AM

The negativity you are talking about, is not about posters doubting Bundy. It really is just people looking at the law of averages of all prospects across the game. I don't think you could find anyone anywhere that is not excited about Bundy's potential. I'm sure nearly all would bet that Bundy would reach multiple All-Star games.

I think you reached the level where people would start to bet against Bundy, when you stated he will be a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball for 5-10 years. It is not people questioning Bundy's ability to reach that level, it is people questioning the chances of any pitcher reaching and sustaining that level for that period of time.


Yeah wasn't saying it was at Bundy in particular, it was just about how most people hedge bets and go with the averages and don't consider the player at all. Yes, I went way out on a limb and I could very easily be wrong, but who cares? I just wish more people would come out and say what they really think a guy will or won't do instead of just hiding behind the averages.
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#44 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

I get that, but you have to go by what you think and what you believe will happen. You can't worry about what you can't predict that MIGHT happen. You're going to be wrong sometimes, and if you're good you're going to be right sometimes, but it just seems people are so afraid to be wrong that they only want to give a pessimistic view "oh well this could happen, and this might happen" when you should be saying, based on what I've seen and heard I think he'll do this. If you're wrong later, so be it, but everyone can't just keep assuming everyone is going to bust because the odds are generally more in favor of that. It's like staying on every hand of blackjack because you know the dealer might bust on 3 cards.

Again, not just at you, just in general. This kinda stuff has just bothered me for a few years now. Didn't mean to rant in your direction.


Well look at it this way, most people on a message board don't know enough about mechanics/delivery/release point/prone to injury, and just scouting in general - so who on here can really say with any certainty what someone will become and then be measured as right or wrong?

I know that to me, it seems perfectly reasonable, and responsible, since I have zero scouting abilities to say, well, based on what I've read, he should be a good one for a long time, but heck if I know. And I also think that given the injuries in the game of baseball, and especially with pitchers, that people always remind themselves, and others, that there are a number of risk factors at play which could take someone who should be great and instead make them maybe just average, or a bust completely.

I really don't see what's wrong with that at all.

And for people who don't know scouting to say "on the record" that he will be X or he will be Y - How is that valid? If they were right they just got lucky, if they were wrong, they didn't really know what they were talking about anyway, so who cares?

There are maybe 5-10 people on message boards who I trust with an opinion like that. Folks like yourself, Stotle, Luke, RVA, etc. People who actually go scout and form opinions based on substance.

#45 Mackus

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:42 AM

I understand why you might want to see more bold predictions of exactly what a guy will do, but given all the immense variables, is that even really useful?

From a fans standpoint, it's just a fun thing to do, so yeah that makes sense.

But from a team's standpoint, I don't know if I really think it's all that useful to even put together a firm prediction on a guy when that prediction is so wildly unlikely to be the end result, either too high or too low. Especially if you are considering the guy a part of your future. I'd prefer to accumulate an entire risk profile on a guy and compare that to the value of each of those various potential outcomes. Come up with an average expectation on the guy as well as the deviation to see how far he'd have to outperform that net profile by in order to reach what you view as his max ceiling, or how much he'd have to underperform by to not be valuable in the future.

I don't think it's avoiding making a firm prediction as much as it is accepting that there really can't be a firm prediction, just a series of guesses.

#46 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:45 AM

Well look at it this way, most people on a message board don't know enough about mechanics/delivery/release point/prone to injury, and just scouting in general - so who on here can really say with any certainty what someone will become and then be measured as right or wrong?

I know that to me, it seems perfectly reasonable, and responsible, since I have zero scouting abilities to say, well, based on what I've read, he should be a good one for a long time, but heck if I know. And I also think that given the injuries in the game of baseball, and especially with pitchers, that people always remind themselves, and others, that there are a number of risk factors at play which could take someone who should be great and instead make them maybe just average, or a bust completely.

I really don't see what's wrong with that at all.

And for people who don't know scouting to say "on the record" that he will be X or he will be Y - How is that valid? If they were right they just got lucky, if they were wrong, they didn't really know what they were talking about anyway, so who cares?

There are maybe 5-10 people on message boards who I trust with an opinion like that. Folks like yourself, Stotle, Luke, RVA, etc. People who actually go scout and form opinions based on substance.


I have no problem with people feeling like they don't have the expertise to make opinions or guesses, that's fine, but many of you all still can. You'd be surprised how well some of you would do. You can't consider the risk factors, they are there for everyone. It's ok if you don't want to, but I don't like when people WON'T make assessments or guesses even, but then tear down other people's opinions about players.

I think some of the best conversation comes from one person saying they think A and another saying I think B, but explaining to each other why they feel that way. What I tend to see is one person say I think A and a bunch of people disagree without offering anything themselves. It just turns into one person defending a position, which is just an opinion and anyone can have one of those, instead of people comparing views.
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#47 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:50 AM

I have no problem with people feeling like they don't have the expertise to make opinions or guesses, that's fine, but many of you all still can. You'd be surprised how well some of you would do. You can't consider the risk factors, they are there for everyone. It's ok if you don't want to, but I don't like when people WON'T make assessments or guesses even, but then tear down other people's opinions about players.

I think some of the best conversation comes from one person saying they think A and another saying I think B, but explaining to each other why they feel that way. What I tend to see is one person say I think A and a bunch of people disagree without offering anything themselves. It just turns into one person defending a position, which is just an opinion and anyone can have one of those, instead of people comparing views.


I hear ya, that's why I typically try to stay out of things that I really don't know much about. I mean, if I had to guess and put it on paper, I'd go with Bundy being an ACE for us for several years. If I'm right, that doesn't make me smarter than those who were wrong though. It's not like I'm basing this off of my own personal scouting reports. That's my point I guess.

That said, it seems like the O's are being very meticulous with Bundy with his innings limit, the whole 3 innings, 4 innings, 5 innings, limits. Limiting his fastball to force him to develop his changeup and offspeed stuff more. Having him hit specific locations, etc. I also feel great that he and Rick Peterson both arrived in our organization at the same time. For those reasons, I predict he'll be an ace for us. But again, that's just anecdotal, and not very specific as to anything I've personally seen.
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#48 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:51 AM

I understand why you might want to see more bold predictions of exactly what a guy will do, but given all the immense variables, is that even really useful?

From a fans standpoint, it's just a fun thing to do, so yeah that makes sense.

But from a team's standpoint, I don't know if I really think it's all that useful to even put together a firm prediction on a guy when that prediction is so wildly unlikely to be the end result, either too high or too low. Especially if you are considering the guy a part of your future. I'd prefer to accumulate an entire risk profile on a guy and compare that to the value of each of those various potential outcomes. Come up with an average expectation on the guy as well as the deviation to see how far he'd have to outperform that net profile by in order to reach what you view as his max ceiling, or how much he'd have to underperform by to not be valuable in the future.

I don't think it's avoiding making a firm prediction as much as it is accepting that there really can't be a firm prediction, just a series of guesses.


What is the point of all the statistic searching, and analysis on players from draft time to the majors if you are just going to say these are the ways I think he could fail. What's wrong with looking at what he has or how he does and saying I think he's going to be good, or I don't think he will because x. This isn't about wanting people to make firm predictions, I don't care if I'm right or wrong on mine, but it was basically just done as a counter to people saying oh well we don't know if he's going to be any good or not, he might fail. You're right, he might, but he might also be a future CY winner. And not just saying that because you can unrealistically say that about any pitcher, but because he really does have that kind of skill set.
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#49 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:55 AM

I hear ya, that's why I typically try to stay out of things that I really don't know much about. I mean, if I had to guess and put it on paper, I'd go with Bundy being an ACE for us for several years. If I'm right, that doesn't make me smarter than those who were wrong though. It's not like I'm basing this off of my own personal scouting reports. That's my point I guess.

That said, it seems like the O's are being very meticulous with Bundy with his innings limit, the whole 3 innings, 4 innings, 5 innings, limits. Limiting his fastball to force him to develop his changeup and offspeed stuff more. Having him hit specific locations, etc. I also feel great that he and Rick Peterson both arrived in our organization at the same time. For those reasons, I predict he'll be an ace for us. But again, that's just anecdotal, and not very specific as to anything I've personally seen.


Yeah see this is exactly what I mean, it's perfect. It's not about being smarter than others, it's just about having more opinions to discuss instead of one opinion and debating that one viewpoint over and over. Like Law or Calis or whoever.

Me personally, I'd say his plus plus velocity and his Kershaw like curveball give him some of the best tools i've seen, and the mentality is just about the best you could hope for, so I think he's really going to be a special pitcher here for years. With him moving so fast and so young, I think he's going to be a top level pitcher for a long time. If he's in the ML at 19/20 even with a couple years to adjust he could have 10 years of prime years ahead of him.
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#50 Mackus

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

What is the point of all the statistic searching, and analysis on players from draft time to the majors if you are just going to say these are the ways I think he could fail.

It was basically just done as a counter to people saying oh well we don't know if he's going to be any good or not, he might fail. You're right, he might, but he might also be a future CY winner. And not just saying that because you can unrealistically say that about any pitcher, but because he really does have that kind of skill set.

I'm not just pointing out the ways he could fail. His Cy Young potential certainly would be part of the equation. And you also have to consider how likely you think it is that he reaches that potential versus slightly lower, and all the way down. Then you've gotta have a plan in place, or at least a preference, for preferring guys with super high upsides buy perhaps not a great chance of reaching them over lower ceiling but higher-floored players, or some combination of both.

If you are convinced that you think he will be an All-Star SP almost every, then obviously you don't move him for anybody in the game. But how often are you convinced that this will happen? I don't think it does you any benefit to just ignore all the range of possibilities and focus only on one prediction. I'd rather consider all the possibilities and figure out how likely I think each of them is to be reached, and then from that matrix formulate my assessment of the player's worth.

He might end up as any one of those possibilities. In face he will end up as one of those possibilities. The interesting part to me is not saying that we don't know which one he'll end up as so let's ignore all of them. I also wouldn't say, well I think he'll end up as this one possibility so let's discount the rest. To me, it's valuable to consider an entire range of likelihoods applied to each of your potential possibilities and then look at that picture rather than take either an extremely broad (he could bust out or by a Cy Young winner) or a very narrow (he'll be a #2 starter) type of view. Obviously they aren't dead-accurate odds, since it's still a game of projection not of shear probability.
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#51 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:03 AM

Yeah wasn't saying it was at Bundy in particular, it was just about how most people hedge bets and go with the averages and don't consider the player at all. Yes, I went way out on a limb and I could very easily be wrong, but who cares? I just wish more people would come out and say what they really think a guy will or won't do instead of just hiding behind the averages.


It is an interesting way of looking at it. I'll say I prefer the opposite.

When evaluating a player, or projecting a prospect; I like to see/read the comments of as many people who have seen the player as possible. Then I like to evaluate the known numbers. If you have ancillary information such as knowledge about the player's work ethic, determination, etc., I'll consider that as well. Ultimately I take and consider all of that, and balance that out vs. what I see myself.

I've yet to see Bundy pitch (beyond YouTube highlights). Every evaluator everywhere is in love with his stuff, poise, and makeup. It's pretty easy to project him to be in the Majors by late-May / early-June '13. Even easier now that it seems apparent he will end '12 at Bowie.

Knowing what is known about Bundy now, I believe everyone everywhere would expect him to perform at a very high level for a long-time. I believe most would acknowledge that just as he has experienced a learning curve going from the South Atlantic League to the Carolina League; he will go through similar learning curves in the Eastern League, and eventually the Show.

I know that part of the evaluation I will have for him, will not just be how he looks, but a comparison of how he looks (at his age) vs. others.



In my time watching the O's, I think we've seen 3 other prospects (Ben McDonald, Jeffrey Hammonds, and Wieters) with similar pedigree, hype, and expectations. We saw how injuries impacted McDonald, and Hammonds, and I understand that you can not necessarily expect injuries to occur. However, they do happen, and they can derail even the most promising careers. You might look at Dylan, and say you think with his mechanics, and training; that injuries are unlikely. I think it is fair for others to say that based on all-players everywhere, it becomes dangerous to guess where even the most talented players today, will be 5 to 10 years from now.

Speaking for myself, I do think it becomes much easier to make a determination on players after I'm seen them personally. I had not seen Wieters play in the Minors. When he was first promoted, I said pretty much right away that he had holes in his game that I did not anticipate after reading what I had read. Still, while believing what my own eyes were seeing, I also remembered to stay cognizant of the numbers Wieters had produced, and the many glowing comments he had received from evaluators across the game.



After writing the above, I see that Ricker Says and Mackus have done a better job articulating my thoughts than I have.
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#52 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:09 AM

He might end up as any one of those possibilities. In face he will end up as one of those possibilities. The interesting part to me is not saying that we don't know which one he'll end up as so let's ignore all of them. I also wouldn't say, well I think he'll end up as this one possibility so let's discount the rest. To me, it's valuable to consider an entire range of likelihoods applied to each of your potential possibilities and then look at that picture rather than take either an extremely broad (he could bust out or by a Cy Young winner) or a very narrow (he'll be a #2 starter) type of view. Obviously they aren't dead-accurate odds, since it's still a game of projection not of shear probability.


Good post. I've always liked the whole probability/balanced approach. IE: 50% chance of becoming an ace, 25% chance of being league average, 15% of being below average, 10% chance of being a bust/not even making it, etc.

#53 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:18 AM

I'm not just pointing out the ways he could fail. His Cy Young potential certainly would be part of the equation. And you also have to consider how likely you think it is that he reaches that potential versus slightly lower, and all the way down. Then you've gotta have a plan in place, or at least a preference, for preferring guys with super high upsides buy perhaps not a great chance of reaching them over lower ceiling but higher-floored players, or some combination of both.

If you are convinced that you think he will be an All-Star SP almost every, then obviously you don't move him for anybody in the game. But how often are you convinced that this will happen? I don't think it does you any benefit to just ignore all the range of possibilities and focus only on one prediction. I'd rather consider all the possibilities and figure out how likely I think each of them is to be reached, and then from that matrix formulate my assessment of the player's worth.

He might end up as any one of those possibilities. In face he will end up as one of those possibilities. The interesting part to me is not saying that we don't know which one he'll end up as so let's ignore all of them. I also wouldn't say, well I think he'll end up as this one possibility so let's discount the rest. To me, it's valuable to consider an entire range of likelihoods applied to each of your potential possibilities and then look at that picture rather than take either an extremely broad (he could bust out or by a Cy Young winner) or a very narrow (he'll be a #2 starter) type of view. Obviously they aren't dead-accurate odds, since it's still a game of projection not of shear probability.


That's the thing with projection you have to pick what you think he will be in order to have a solid value for him. Teams don't say well we think he COULD be an all-star, but he could be a #3 starter or could bust. Bundy is one of the rare prospects where you can really see what he has, you don't look and say well I think he could turn into a #2-3 guy, you look and say this kid has TOR all over him.

Of course injuries or that unpredictable bust thing COULD happen, it could happen to anyone, but you can't figure that into his evaluation because it's not something you can count on. (Unless it's Strasburg with that hard curve and mechanics and you see it a mile away).

This is where that ceiling v. floor debate really comes in. His floor is higher than most prospects, which is why he's a rare one. I don't think it does any good at all to figure out multiple ranges because EVERY player can fall short of what you project. I think you figure out what your most likely outcome is, and you go with that. If you think it's more likely he ends up a solid #2 then there you go. If you think it's most likely he ends up an ACE then you go with that.

I personally think it's most likely he does end up an ACE. Am I saying that he absolutely will make that projection? Of course not, but it's my opinion from what I can see now that I think he will make it.

I just don't see what good it is to focus on all these possible outcomes and assign likelyhood to them, there are millions of variables and impossible to break things down that much.
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#54 Mackus

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

I think you figure out what your most likely outcome is, and you go with that. If you think it's more likely he ends up a solid #2 then there you go. If you think it's most likely he ends up an ACE then you go with that.

I personally think it's most likely he does end up an ACE. Am I saying that he absolutely will make that projection? Of course not, but it's my opinion from what I can see now that I think he will make it.

I'm not sure we're as far off here as we seem.

I'm basically saying to start with what you're doing. Come up with, not exactly his ceiling, but his most likely result as you see it. Then bam, that's where you start. You think it's 50% likely he ends up as an Ace or so. So what are the odds that he's even better than that? Probably not much, since there really isn't any better. So what are the odds that he's just a solid SP if not an ace? 30%? 10%? Throw a number at it.

And you can make it as specific or broad as you think is useful. You can go #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, closer, middle relief, long relief, AAAA, complete bust or you can just say Ace, solid starter, good reliever, AAAA, or flameout.

It would just give you a wider picture of what your organization thinks of a guy's potential than just putting one outcome on it and then saying this is what he will be or else we will be wrong about what he is, either better or worse.

I totally understand your perspective of "putting your money where your mouth is" but I'm just not convinced that is a more valuable methodology, over a long term of scouting hundreds and thousands of guys.

#55 Oriole85

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:01 PM

Bundy WILL be a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball for another 5-10 years, Hernandez will start to fall off a bit soon.

The cavalry was also supposed to do great things. You have no idea if Bundy is going to live up to the hype, not to mention injury factor. The Verducci article I thought did a great job mentioning the rate of failure.
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#56 Oriole85

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:04 PM

Right...Wieters WAS going to be Mauer with power. We saw how that worked out.

Could see this type of post from a mile away. The reason I don't do the trade though is because Bundy provides much more value and is under team control for longer. I'll take my chances.
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#57 JeremyStrain

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:14 PM

The cavalry was also supposed to do great things. You have no idea if Bundy is going to live up to the hype, not to mention injury factor. The Verducci article I thought did a great job mentioning the rate of failure.


None of the cavalry had Bundy's tools either. Like I mentioned, you can't talk about injury factor they aren't predictable, they are random, and I'm very aware of the rate of failure.
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#58 Mackus

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:14 PM

The cavalry was also supposed to do great things. You have no idea if Bundy is going to live up to the hype, not to mention injury factor. The Verducci article I thought did a great job mentioning the rate of failure.

I wouldn't say no idea. Just that you can't say for certain what he will become. Obviously you have some idea that he will become a star, otherwise he wouldn't be such a great prospect.

#59 Oriole85

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:38 PM

You can't consider the risk factors, they are there for everyone.

That's just illogical, some players come with more risk than others. That's actually part of scouting is being able to predict that sort of stuff.
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#60 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 01:51 PM

That's just illogical, some players come with more risk than others. That's actually part of scouting is being able to predict that sort of stuff.


Well, I wouldn't say it's illogical, but it is a fair point. Strasburg, for instance, came with a certain level of predictability that he would suffer a serious injury due to his "inverted w" delivery. In most cases, it's certainly more random, but there are players who are certainly identifiable as more injury prone early on.




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