154 replies to this topic

[bnickle]

Mack is right. He was a candidate to be waived and so was Strop. We are talking about a guy who had failed in Baltimore. To get something for them when DD did was good. I mean Mack compared Jake to Bundy, and ultimately he's probably right, but at least Bundy still has a chance to show the Os something. Arrieta isn't comparable to Gaus either. He had more time and never put together a stretch like Kevin did last year. Now, again, I don't think we should be putting too much stock into what Gays did in the rotation last year, but it's not the same. I think you're not remembering how far Jake had falllen in this organization.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Mack is right. He was a candidate to be waived and so was Strop. We are talking about a guy who had failed in Baltimore. To get something for them when DD did was good. I mean Mack compared Jake to Bundy, and ultimately he's probably right, but at least Bundy still has a chance to show the Os something. Arrieta isn't comparable to Gaus either. He had more time and never put together a stretch like Kevin did last year. Now, again, I don't think we should be putting too much stock into what Gays did in the rotation last year, but it's not the same. I think you're not remembering how far Jake had falllen in this organization.

 

No, I remember completely...   I remember the sky is falling people crying about him and Strop...   it was short-term thinking that I disagreed with at the time. Less so with Strop as he was a reliever.

 

I thought Arrieta could have been hidden in the pen, and would have done so vs. using him to obtain Feldman. Giving up Arrieta's potential - which did still exist, even if he had failed so far in his O's career - and his years of control was a mistake. That's not hindsight, it was a mistake at the time.

[bnickle]

He wasn't being used and was a DFA candidate. It's that simple. You'll stand by a lot of guys for a very long time and you may have ended up being rewarded in this case. The Os were done with them and completely understandably so.

[bnickle]

We were contending. He had no role on a contending team. Same with Strop, who was completely atrocious in '13. No one is getting any blame for getting something of value out of two guys who were about to be DFA. They were gone either way.

[Mackus]

Arrieta still had his option for that year, so he wasn't a DFA candidate.  But agree with everything else.  It was entirely reasonable for the team to have been ready to cut bait.  Choosing to trade Jake instead of someone sitting in the back of our top-10 (some still-relevant names such as Wright, Davies, Kline, Walker at the time,or maybe someone who has completely disappered) list was a completely reasonable and defensible decision.

[bnickle]

Arrieta still had his option for that year, so he wasn't a DFA candidate. But agree with everything else. It was entirely reasonable for the team to have been ready to cut bait. Choosing to trade Jake instead of someone sitting in the back of our top-10 (some still-relevant names such as Wright, Davies, Kline, Walker at the time,or maybe someone who has completely disappered) list was a completely reasonable and defensible decision.

Are you sure he still had an option year. I'm positive we would have used it if we could. It does help Stoners argument though overall I'm still in agreement about having no issues moving on.

[bnickle]

Ok so of course you were correct that he had an option year in '13. His ERA in an Os uni was over 5. He was relatively old. He wasn't pitching well in AAA in '13 before he was moved. Stand by what I said, but the option year the rest of '13 does help Stoner out here.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I won't beat the dead horse further... that decision is gone. I disagreed then, and I still disagree now... but w/e.

 

The O's should be making the decision making process easy for DD now. We wanted them to perform or tank... they've tanked. There should be no reason to spend resources to go for it this year imo.  If they want to hold what they have, and try and to get into the playoffs with this group... okay. If DD wants to buy on the fringe... okay.  Really, think they should be selling at this point.

 

 

To discuss this idea further though, I will go back to Mack's point about Bundy and if the O's were in position where they needed a 4th starter...  I wouldn't be excited about that either. Trading Bundy's future years, and the possibility that he reaches close to his ceiling for some limited help today. Even if we were contending and that 4th was 'needed.' If I was going to move Bundy, it would be as part of a package for something more valuable. 

 

Since Bundy's current injury status complicates things slightly...  we can talk Gausman. I could get behind moving Gausman if the O's were peaking, and they were going to move Gausman as the headliner for a larger return... but that is still very short-sighted. It's ignoring the coming roster turnover... it's giving up Gausman's years of control...  it's saying that whatever piece Gausman helped bring back, was going to push the odds slightly better in the O's favor for '15...    based on the current economics of the game, don't think it is really worth making a move like that.
 

Keep the high end talents you control if they are only bringing back middling talent or rentals... and if the talent flames out, so be it.

[SportsGuy]

Bundy is different because the idea of him never throwing a pitch in the majors is real.

However, if he gets beyond his health issues, you figure he will still be really good.

Arietta wasn't about health.

[RShack]

Arrieta still had his option for that year, so he wasn't a DFA candidate.  But agree with everything else.  It was entirely reasonable for the team to have been ready to cut bait.  

 

You're right... it was entirely reasonable... but it also would have been reasonable to keep him too... it's not an either/or kind of thing... both things were reasonable...

[NewMarketSean]

15-6

2.30 ERA

9.1 K/9

2.3 BB/9

.098 WHIP

 

Received some CYA votes last year, he may just win it this year.

[McNulty]

I don't understand the point of this. He was pretty terrible here, and it wasn't going to get fixed, for whatever reason(s). He was never going to be an ace for us. So why torture ourselves thinking about what could've been?? I'd rather focus on how to prevent screwing up again with development. If possible.

[Mackus]

Received some CYA votes last year, he may just win it this year.

 

He'll get votes (not for 1st place), but he has zero chance of winning it.

[Mackus]

I don't understand the point of this. He was pretty terrible here, and it wasn't going to get fixed, for whatever reason(s). He was never going to be an ace for us. So why torture ourselves thinking about what could've been?? I'd rather focus on how to prevent screwing up again with development. If possible.

 

Agree.  No chance Arrieta ever would have done this here and I don't think that's indicative of our development or coaching staff being at fault either.

[NewMarketSean]

Just updating it. He's got the most wins in the league.

 

This is a discussion forum, no?

 

He's going to finish top 5 in CYA votes. Maybe top 3.

[NewMarketSean]

Agree.  No chance Arrieta ever would have done this here and I don't think that's indicative of our development or coaching staff being at fault either.

 

I think it definitely is and Arrieta basically said as much -- too many voices in his ear.

[McNulty]

Just updating it. He's got the most wins in the league.
 
This is a discussion forum, no?
 
He's going to finish top 5 in CYA votes. Maybe top 3.

I'm not trying to single you out here. I guess my point is that the what if game is almost always a bad idea.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Mack - Not sure how you can be confident that our PlDev had nothing to do with it given that they still haven't produced a quality pitcher. Still waiting. Is that fair? I don't know. There's a TON we DON'T know about that whole process. But the results are overwhelmingly negative with our pitchers. That can't be argued.

[You Play to Win the Game]

And I'm with McNulty... zero point in second guessing it to this point. And Mack's right, he wouldn't have done this here.

 

My question is... why?

[Matt_P]

And I'm with McNulty... zero point in second guessing it to this point. And Mack's right, he wouldn't have done this here.

 

My question is... why?

 

Either Small Sample Size (we've had limited talented pitching and it's just bad luck that it's all busted) or the Os development is poor. Take your pick.