1335 replies to this topic

[SportsGuy]

Nope, that absolutely can't be the argument after watching this series.
You can't have it both ways. You can't play the scrub card and then tell me he makes players around him better.
Really, who did he make better in this series. Who did he make better in '07.

Seriously...you don't know basketball at all if you think this is true. Listen to one coach, one analyst, one player talk about the Heat offense and why it's successful. It's always the same thing.

Everything Miami does on offense, when LBJ is on the court, is based around him. Teams key on him. Everything goes through him. Everyone on that team benefits from LeBron.

As for the scrub card...players have roles...the Cle team didn't even have a good second player, which you need. You can make guys better...doesn't mean you will win.

You can't call Duncan an all time great, Pop one of the greatest coaches ever and the Spurs one of the best organizations in sports and then slam LeBron because he lost to them twice.

I agree he isn't MJ....I agree LBJ needs to win more titles to be in the discussion for greatest player ever. But saying LeBron doesn't make players around him better is absurd. Wade let him down big time in this series.

And SA was on a mission, shot lights out and were the better team...LeBron couldn't stop that.

[bnickle]

BTW..Google says John Salley won 3 in 3 different decades 89,90,96,00 Technically, 2000 isn't a new decade.

[DJ MC]

Also, best as I can tell, the only player on both the 1959 and 1970 Colts teams was Johnny Unitas.

[bnickle]

Depends on how technical you want to get. The Colts win the 1968 NFL championship while the leagues were still officially independent, but they were already playing the Super Bowl (which of course they lost). They didn't win another NFL championship in the 1960s, pre- or post-SB.

Right. The Colts won the NFL Championship in '69 which was the SB era but it was the NFL vs the AFL. Before the merger.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Also, best as I can tell, the only player on both the 1959 and 1970 Colts teams was Johnny Unitas.

I believe it. Apparently the lifespan of a career then was quite bad. Not that today it's much better.

[You Play to Win the Game]

There were 8 NHL players to win a title in 3 different decades. Mark Recchi is the only one I'm positive about. Surprisingly, 5 decade player, Gordie Howe, won all 4 of his cups in the 50's.

[bnickle]

Berra and DiMaggio are correct answers too.

[bnickle]

Seriously...you don't know basketball at all if you think this is true. Listen to one coach, one analyst, one player talk about the Heat offense and why it's successful. It's always the same thing.

Everything Miami does on offense, when LBJ is on the court, is based around him. Teams key on him. Everything goes through him. Everyone on that team benefits from LeBron.

As for the scrub card...players have roles...the Cle team didn't even have a good second player, which you need. You can make guys better...doesn't mean you will win.

You can't call Duncan an all time great, Pop one of the greatest coaches ever and the Spurs one of the best organizations in sports and then slam LeBron because he lost to them twice.

I agree he isn't MJ....I agree LBJ needs to win more titles to be in the discussion for greatest player ever. But saying LeBron doesn't make players around him better is absurd. Wade let him down big time in this series.

And SA was on a mission, shot lights out and were the better team...LeBron couldn't stop that.

It's a simple question. Who did he make better in this series??

Jordan and likely Magic would never had let a team steamroll them like this. Especially, in their primes. They would have got more out of their teams.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Some Canadians (the team) back in the day too.

 

Good call. Henri Richard (not "Rocket" that was his brother Maurice) and Jean Béliveau both won at least one Stanley Cup in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

 

EDIT: With an assist to Google, add Rocket to the list, but he did it in the 40's, 50's and 60's...barely, as he retired after the '59-'60 season.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Some Canadians (the team) back in the day too.

 
Good call. Henri Richard (not "The Rocket" that was his brother Maurice) and Jean Béliveau both won at least one Stanley Cup in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

Nice. That's 3 of the 8 from the NHL (including Recchi).

[SportsGuy]

It's a simple question. Who did he make better in this series??
Jordan and likely Magic would never had let a team steamroll them like this. Especially, in their primes. They would have got more out of their teams.

Magic lost 4 finals....and got swept in 2 of them.

Miami sucked in this series....that wasn't LeBrons fault and making some kind of blanket statement like he doesn't make anyone better because his team had a bad series is illogical.

[BSLMikeLowe]

Nice. That's 4 of the 8 from the NHL (including Recchi).

 

The way the Habs completely owned the NHL from the 50's thru the mid-70's, I would suspect there are more of them among that 8. Béliveau and the Richard brothers were just the ones that easily came to mind since they're HOF'ers.

[bnickle]

I'll restate my point.

 

 

Obviously, great players make others around them better. For as much crap as Carmelo gets, he is good/great enough that he makes others around him better.

 

My question and point is that Jordan, Magic, and I might even argue someone like  Kobe would have got more out of these  Heat players or similar skilled players than LBJ just did this series. You wont convince me that Jordan would have lost 3 blowouts in a row with similarly skilled players as LBJ just had. Whether he upped his game that much more, did it through motivation, etc.

 

Im not saying he would have won the series. Im saying he wouldn't have got blown out in 3 straight games, two of which were on his own court.

 

 

And you know what. That's was part of the argument all of us were having 4-5 years ago on the Hangout when we were debating LBJ and Kobe. Now, Im fine with saying LBJ is the better player. He is, but does Kobe get more out of his teammates. The argument here is what you and I, and Cerano all said in this thread. He is 2-3 in The Finals and very lucky not to be 1-4. Part of your greatness is measured in rings. Measured in how you perform on the biggest stage. Both yourself as an individual, and as the leader of  a team.

 

I could go through all the individual players who put up great numbers in the Finals and lost. There is too much of a pass here by just saying he played great. Yes, he did his job. The bottom line is it wasn't nearly enough. Is it wrong to expect more from someone people are claiming as a challenger to MJs throne or even already putting him as one of the best 3 of all time??

[mweb08]

Does Kobe get more out of his teammates is being posed as a serious question? Wow. The answer is a resounding no.

[mweb08]

First off, amazing job by the Spurs. That was one of the most impressive Finals I've ever seen.

[mweb08]

As for Lebron not being MJ. The funny thing about Brandon bringing that up is that in that $15 super team thread, he said he had the best two players in MJ and James. Meanwhile, as much as I'm in the tank for Lebron, I disagreed with that. So yeah, James isn't MJ.

[You Play to Win the Game]

First off, amazing job by the Spurs. That was one of the most impressive Finals I've ever seen.

Best offensive efficiency in the finals since the 3 point line. Pretty damn impressive.

[SammyBirdland]

LeBron doesn't play anywhere near selfish enough to be MJ.

[bnickle]

As for Lebron not being MJ. The funny thing about Brandon bringing that up is that in that $15 super team thread, he said he had the best two players in MJ and James. Meanwhile, as much as I'm in the tank for Lebron, I disagreed with that. So yeah, James isn't MJ.

Because LeBron is physically the most gifted player ever. However, he can play comfortably next to the alpha male in Jordan. There is no doubt who's team that would be, even if James put up equal or even better advantaged stats than MJ.

[mweb08]

As for Lebron not being MJ. The funny thing about Brandon bringing that up is that in that $15 super team thread, he said he had the best two players in MJ and James. Meanwhile, as much as I'm in the tank for Lebron, I disagreed with that. So yeah, James isn't MJ.

Because LeBron is physically the most gifted player ever. However, he can play comfortably next to the alpha male in Jordan. There is no doubt who's team that would be, even if James put up equal or even better advantaged stats than MJ.

You flat out said he's one of the best 2 players without qualifying it with any of this other stuff. As for best fit, he's a great guy to have on a team like that, I just wouldn't say he's the second best player like both you and Rob did.