48 replies to this topic

[bnickle]

And how often did the end of half possession under Gary look like a cluster F. It seemingly happened every game for 20 years.

 

 

 

The players play the game. That's all I can say.

[glenn__davis]

And how often did the end of half possession under Gary look like a cluster F. It seemingly happened every game for 20 years.

 

 

 

The players play the game. That's all I can say.

 

I'm sorry, I realize you love to bash Gary, but this is silly.  Watching Gary's team execute sets vs. Turgeon's is a no-contest at this point.  Gary's teams almost always got a good shot off at the end of a half/game. 

 

I agree with Mackus that it's concerning that the end of half/end of game scenarios were so bad again, but also agree with him that it's just one game.  To me, I think the only real issue is that both Faust and Wells have no concept of time passage.  By that I mean that they are always heaving up shots with 4,5 seconds left on the clock. 

 

I will say that I thought we were much better defensively on set plays last night.  That was a major criticism of mine last year, and I thought it was much better against UCONN.

[Mackus]

And how often did the end of half possession under Gary look like a cluster F. It seemingly happened every game for 20 years.

 

 

 

The players play the game. That's all I can say.

 

Not as often as this group of players has been screwing it up, for sure.  Though not sure why that's even remotely relevant.

 

You can't possibly be suggesting that the coach isn't at least partly responsible for the improvement of his players year over year, are you?  Turgeon's players haven't improved their on-court IQ, at least not as far as in getting it to translate to consistent, effective end-of-half possessions.  That's not 100% Turgeon's fault, but it's certainly not 0% his fault either.  Also doesn't mean that he can't eventually get through to them and they improve at this and many other aspects of the game.

[Oriole85]

@GaryParrishCBS That’s no way to cool a hot seat, Coach Robinson. RT @EyeOnCBB: Coppin State 78, Oregon State 73.

 

Not sure where to put this, but let's put it this way, there's no reason they should lose to Oregon State at home.

[bnickle]

I'm sorry, I realize you love to bash Gary, but this is silly.  Watching Gary's team execute sets vs. Turgeon's is a no-contest at this point.  Gary's teams almost always got a good shot off at the end of a half/game. 

 

I agree with Mackus that it's concerning that the end of half/end of game scenarios were so bad again, but also agree with him that it's just one game.  To me, I think the only real issue is that both Faust and Wells have no concept of time passage.  By that I mean that they are always heaving up shots with 4,5 seconds left on the clock. 

 

I will say that I thought we were much better defensively on set plays last night.  That was a major criticism of mine last year, and I thought it was much better against UCONN.

How long have you been blind. That was the running  joke for 15 years on Gary in regards to last second shots at half.

 

 

 

Gary Williams might be the most overrated coach by one college's fanbase of alltime. I mean he was a good coach but people severly overrate his coaching ability. People remember how many times he got his team up for a big reg season game and forget the times we didn't take care of business against weak teams. Especially, his last 7-8years here.  He couldn't get past the Sweet 16 without 3 players who have or will have their numbers retired by the team all playing at the same time. Not to mention another Top 10 NBA talent in Wilcox. He had Top 10 teams in '95 in '99 and flamed out pretty weakly in the Sweet 16 rounds to UConn and St Johns.

 

 

 

I mean listen. He was a good coach, but he's never been close to the God most MD fans make him out to be around here.  He's much closer to Gene Keady than Dean Smith.

[BSLChrisStoner]

How long have you been blind. That was the running  joke for 15 years on Gary in regards to last second shots at half.

 

 

 

Gary Williams might be the most overrated coach by one college's fanbase of alltime. I mean he was a good coach but people severly overrate his coaching ability. People remember how many times he got his team up for a big reg season game and forget the times we didn't take care of business against weak teams. Especially, his last 7-8years here.  He couldn't get past the Sweet 16 without 3 players who have or will have their numbers retired by the team all playing at the same time. Not to mention another Top 10 NBA talent in Wilcox. He had Top 10 teams in '95 in '99 and flamed out pretty weakly in the Sweet 16 rounds to UConn and St Johns.

 

 

 

I mean listen. He was a good coach, but he's never been close to the God most MD fans make him out to be around here.  He's much closer to Gene Keady than Dean Smith.

 

From Feb 2011:

Baltimore Sports and Life: “Coach Williams has taken 4 schools to post-season play,  has the 3rd most wins all-time in the ACC (Dean Smith, Mike Krzyewski), and is closing in on 700 career wins. Will he be voted into the Hall of Fame?”

 

Jay Bilas (ESPN): “As I noted earlier, he should be there already. Gary has accomplished more than many current members of the Hall of Fame. They say it is just a matter of time, but I am personally tired of waiting. He deserves to be in now. Gary Williams is one of the best coaches in the history of this game. Period. His accomplishments and longevity put him on the ACC’s Mount Rushmore with Dean Smith and Coach K.”

 

Mike DeCourcy (Sporting News): “I don’t know if he will. That’s hard to judge. I know that he should. That’s not debatable.”

[BSLChrisStoner]

I love Gary... he was my favorite person in sports.... but regardless of how you feel about him (and I don't think saying he is closer to Keady vs. Dean Smith is an insult....)....  it's 2014, and this is Turgeon's program.

Even for someone like me that will always be iin the tank for Gary, I'm tired of seeing that comparison.

 

Turgeon is a good coach.... program is on the upswing. Looking forward to seeing what is accomplished this year, and what is coming in Big Ten play with another strong recruiting class.

[BSLChrisStoner]

BTW, as I'm pulling out old links...

 

From May 2011:
 

Baltimore Sports and Life: “After reaching the NCAA Tournament 5 of the last 6 years (once with Wichita State, the last four years with Texas A&M) Mark Turgeon has been named as the new Head Coach for the University of Maryland. Immediate thoughts on the hire?”

 

Jay Bilas: “I think it is a great hire.  I think Mark is one of the best coaches in the country, and he has proven that with his success at Wichita State and Texas A&M.  I think Maryland hit a home run with Mark.”

 

Mike DeCourcy: “Maryland was sitting on a really remarkable opportunity. If you look at the state of the ACC, there are a number of Coaches who are either not very good, or just getting started. Obviously it is not known how long Roy Williams and Coach K will Coach, but they are approaching retiring age – and certainly the final 10 years of their careers. Maryland got a good Coach, not sure it was the right hire.”

 

Jason King: “I’m a big believer in Turgeon as a coach, but I think this was a strange hire. Just because Turgeon is a good coach doesn’t mean he’s a good “fit” for Maryland. How strong are his recruiting contacts in the D.C. area and on the east coast? How will Maryland’s fanbase react to his style of play? How will he handle the increased attention and media exposure that goes along with the job? Again, I think Turgeon is an excellent coach. But was he the best guy for Maryland? We’ll see.”

 

Baltimore Sports and Life: “I’ve seen Turgeon described as a very competitive, emotional guy, that believes in man-to-man defense. I know he was a player and Coach under Larry Brown, and later served on Roy Williams’ staff as well. What else can you tell me about him personally or his Coaching philosophies?”

 

Jay Bilas: “He is no-nonsense.  Mark is just good people.  He is disciplined and expects his players to be disciplined on and off the floor.  He is tough, and his teams play that way.  His teams play hard at both ends, defend and rebound, and they value the ball.  But, most of all, his teams and players compete.  Mark is not a showman, but he is emotional and he bleeds to win.  I think Terp fans will love him. ”

 

Mike DeCourcy: “His offense is very patient, and they get high quality looks. One of the things I’ve liked about what he runs, is that he makes sure his best players, get the most shots. Sounds simple enough, but sometimes missed elsewhere.”

 

Jason King: “The thing that’s impressed me the most about Turgeon is how well-prepared his teams always seem to be. If they lose it’s not because they beat themselves. They play extremely hard and take PRIDE in playing menacing defense and in sharing the ball. For the most part, you won’t see his players taking ill-advised, selfish, “streetball” shots. He’s won a lot of games with somewhat marginal talent. He finds a way to get maximum effort out of almost all of his players.”

 

Baltimore Sports and Life: “Turgeon was the Head Coach of Wichita State during the 2000 through 2007 seasons. In the 2005-06 season, Turgeon was the Missouri Valley Coach of the Year, with the Shockers advancing to the Sweet 16. The following year, Wichita State reached as high as #8 Nationally, before collapsing and not advancing to post-season play. That was probably a trying year for the Coaches, the Players, and the Wichita State fan-base. Do you have any recollections about how Turgeon handled that or any other adversity during his time as Head Coach?”

 

Jay Bilas: “Mark has a great demeanor, and understands how the game works.  He has had great success, and he has had to fight through tough situations.  But, he always handles himself with class and dignity.  Mark is unfailingly honest and straightforward.  When he says something, he means it, and it is the truth.”

 

Mike DeCourcy: “Turgeon is a very composed coach. A class guy, and you rarely see him cracked. Typically what you see out of his teams is a standard to meet expectations. Not exceed or fall below, not a lot of shockers. In my piece with Sporting News I point out the lack of upsets.”

 

Baltimore Sports and Life: “I imagine Texas A&M has plenty of media following the team, but less than the Washington and Baltimore markets. A&M is also seen as a Football school first, while the Basketball team will always be the jewel of the Maryland Athletic Department. Do you think that will be adjustment for Turgeon?”

 

Jay Bilas: “No.  He played and coached at Kansas, and played in the Final Four.  He knows what the spotlight is all about, and he knows what a basketball school is.  And, whether it is a football school or a basketball school, people want to win.  I know one thing, though.  Nobody in College Park will want to win more than Mark.”

 

Mike DeCourcy: “Yes, I would think so. You have the Washington Post, the Baltimore Sun – additional TV, and Radio. It did not take tremendously long after the National Championship for Gary Williams to hear some chirping from the media. That said, when Turgeon was at Wichita State, that program was the absolute ‘King’ for that market and that experience will help.”

 

Jason King: “I definitely think it will be an adjustment. Turgeon often drew criticism for coming across as thin-skinned and immature – especially early in his Texas A&M career, when people kept comparing him to Billy Gillispie. I credit him for staying the course, sticking with his approach and trusting that it would eventually work (because it did) but he made himself look bad with some of his comments to the media. And let’s face it, he wasn’t under nearly as big of a spotlight in College Station as he will be at Maryland. And, yes, I realize he played at Kansas and coached there, too. But it’s different when you’re the head guy.”

[bnickle]

I don't know all the coaches in the HOF. Im sure his resume stacks up to  coaches in the HOF.

 

 

Lets make one thing clear. If there is a Mt Rushmore of ACC coaches Gary may make it if you need 4 coaches. I would have to do research but just know that Dean Smith and K should be sculpted teabagging Gary and whoever the 4th guy would be up there. I mean they are that far above.

 

 

Again, good coach. I would love Turg to have close to the career Gary had here. Just stop making him out to be a God. I watched very closely the last 17 years of his career here. I lived and breathed MD basketball from 15-32 with him as the coach. He was a flawed coach. He was Gene Keady or John Cheany not the legend many make him out to be in MD.

[bnickle]

Maybe everyone was wrong but the reputation Turg had coming into MD was he was a good X's and O's guy. The recruiting was what the question was about. So far the recruiting has been good and people are questioning the X's and O's.  Spinelli also has/had a very good reputation as an Xs and O's guy.

 

 

I 've seen Turge absolutely exasperated at times with the lack of execution. That tells me the guys just aren't getting it. This isn't Paul Hewitt on the sideline completed dumbfounded about making a strategic move.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I just wonder how comfortable Turge is with his ACC style of basketball he's been trying to run up here. It seems the slow it down, posession type of style was his bread and butter at Wichita St and Texas A&M. Was that just because he couldn't get recruits down there talented enough to run a higher pace offense? Or is that his preferred style? He's gotten good recruits here, so the concerns about his lack of ties to the region seem to have been answered. He hustles on the recruiting trail, that's clear. But is a component to his struggles that he doesn't fully believe/isn't convicted about our style of play?

 

Of course, saying all of this... it's almost like those 2000-2008 Ravens... you can have a lot of talent, but if you don't have a QB (PG), it's going to make life difficult. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I don't know all the coaches in the HOF. Im sure his resume stacks up to  coaches in the HOF.

 

 

Lets make one thing clear. If there is a Mt Rushmore of ACC coaches Gary may make it if you need 4 coaches. I would have to do research but just know that Dean Smith and K should be sculpted teabagging Gary and whoever the 4th guy would be up there. I mean they are that far above.

 

 

Again, good coach. I would love Turg to have close to the career Gary had here. Just stop making him out to be a God. I watched very closely the last 17 years of his career here. I lived and breathed MD basketball from 15-32 with him as the coach. He was a flawed coach. He was Gene Keady or John Cheany not the legend many make him out to be in MD.

 

There is no doubt that Smith and K are above.... but they are also above pretty much everyone else in the history of the game. Being 3rd all-time in the ACC wins speaks for itself though. So does being a HOF caliber coach. That, and bringing the program back from near death to a title makes him a legend.

Legends can still be criticized though, and there is plenty to critique about Gary's career, particularly after the title.

Again, none of that is particularly relevant to the here and now though. It's year 3 of Turgeon's program. There are reasons to be excited about the now. My focus is on the current. Starting with beating Abeline Christian, and Oregon State this week in preparation for the Paradise Jam.
 

[You Play to Win the Game]

There is no doubt that Smith and K are above.... but they are also above pretty much everyone else in the history of the game. Being 3rd all-time in the ACC wins speaks for itself though. So does being a HOF caliber coach. That, and bringing the program back from near death to a title makes him a legend.

Legends can still be criticized though, and there is plenty to critique about Gary's career, particularly after the title.

Again, none of that is particularly relevant to the here and now though. It's year 3 of Turgeon's program. There are reasons to be excited about the now. My focus is on the current. Starting with beating Abeline Christian, and Oregon State this week in preparation for the Paradise Jam.
 

 

Looking forward to Zack's in-depth preview of Abeline Christian!

[Oriole85]

How long have you been blind. That was the running  joke for 15 years on Gary in regards to last second shots at half.

 

 

 

Gary Williams might be the most overrated coach by one college's fanbase of alltime. I mean he was a good coach but people severly overrate his coaching ability. People remember how many times he got his team up for a big reg season game and forget the times we didn't take care of business against weak teams. Especially, his last 7-8years here.  He couldn't get past the Sweet 16 without 3 players who have or will have their numbers retired by the team all playing at the same time. Not to mention another Top 10 NBA talent in Wilcox. He had Top 10 teams in '95 in '99 and flamed out pretty weakly in the Sweet 16 rounds to UConn and St Johns.

 

 

 

I mean listen. He was a good coach, but he's never been close to the God most MD fans make him out to be around here.  He's much closer to Gene Keady than Dean Smith.

Fans overvaluing one of their own, never heard of that concept before.

[Oriole85]

There is no doubt that Smith and K are above.... but they are also above pretty much everyone else in the history of the game. Being 3rd all-time in the ACC wins speaks for itself though. So does being a HOF caliber coach. That, and bringing the program back from near death to a title makes him a legend.

Legends can still be criticized though, and there is plenty to critique about Gary's career, particularly after the title.

Again, none of that is particularly relevant to the here and now though. It's year 3 of Turgeon's program. There are reasons to be excited about the now. My focus is on the current. Starting with beating Abeline Christian, and Oregon State this week in preparation for the Paradise Jam.
 

Some Terps fans think he's among the greats (Wooden, Coach K, Knight, etc). I don't think he's as bad as Bnickle is making him out to be, but he only has one national title and another Final Four appearance. He's a very good coach, but not quite at the top tier. Most importantly, he brought the program out of hell. He deserves the praise he receives IMO.

[bnickle]

I just wonder how comfortable Turge is with his ACC style of basketball he's been trying to run up here. It seems the slow it down, posession type of style was his bread and butter at Wichita St and Texas A&M. Was that just because he couldn't get recruits down there talented enough to run a higher pace offense? Or is that his preferred style? He's gotten good recruits here, so the concerns about his lack of ties to the region seem to have been answered. He hustles on the recruiting trail, that's clear. But is a component to his struggles that he doesn't fully believe/isn't convicted about our style of play?

 

Of course, saying all of this... it's almost like those 2000-2008 Ravens... you can have a lot of talent, but if you don't have a QB (PG), it's going to make life difficult. 

Was thinking about this the other night. I do think the Big 10 style is a better fit for Turge. I really do. I think he could be successful in the ACC but Big 10 seems like the natural fit .

[Oriole85]

I don't know all the coaches in the HOF. Im sure his resume stacks up to  coaches in the HOF.

 

 

Lets make one thing clear. If there is a Mt Rushmore of ACC coaches Gary may make it if you need 4 coaches. I would have to do research but just know that Dean Smith and K should be sculpted teabagging Gary and whoever the 4th guy would be up there. I mean they are that far above.

 

 

Again, good coach. I would love Turg to have close to the career Gary had here. Just stop making him out to be a God. I watched very closely the last 17 years of his career here. I lived and breathed MD basketball from 15-32 with him as the coach. He was a flawed coach. He was Gene Keady or John Cheany not the legend many make him out to be in MD.

I'd think Gary would make it. Clearly, Coach K and Dean Smith would be the top (unquestioned) 2. Jimmy V? Maybe, Roy Williams would make it as well?

[bnickle]

I'd think Gary would make it. Clearly, Coach K and Dean Smith would be the top (unquestioned) 2. Jimmy V? Maybe, Roy Williams would make it as well?

if not already Roy Williams will absolutely be on there by the time his career at UNC is done. I mean barring anything unforeseen happening over the next 5-10 years left in his career.

[Oriole85]

if not already Roy Williams will absolutely be on there by the time his career at UNC is done. I mean barring anything unforeseen happening over the next 5-10 years left in his career.

Roy probably doesn't get enough credit on his own here because he was disciple of Dean's and went there relatively soon after Dean retired. In terms of the overall coaching career, Roy is clearly better. He won at two of the most legendary places in cbb. But you could certainly make the argument, GW had a more distinguished ACC career.

[You Play to Win the Game]

It'd be interesting to get Seth's take on Roy vs. Gary. Know he's a Tar Heels guy, but I know he'd be objective and was a big fan of Gary's.