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#461 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:40 AM

Good trade for Cleveland.

Thomas is good but Thomas isn't going to do what Kyrie has done in the playoffs. He's not going to be a put you on my back and we can beat GS.

That's where the gap has been closed.

#462 The Epic

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:09 AM

They could always flip Brooklyn's pick for another good player, if they so chose. Make one big run at it in 2018 and disband after that.



#463 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:27 AM

They could always flip Brooklyn's pick for another good player, if they so chose. Make one big run at it in 2018 and disband after that.

They could...but I have to think they had to get that pick because they know they need it for a rebuild.

 

Now, that being said, if New Jersey is better than people think and it looks like the chances of it being a top 5 pick are slipping away, perhaps they change their thought process.



#464 JordanKough

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 08:52 AM

Thomas is good but Thomas isn't going to do what Kyrie has done in the playoffs. He's not going to be a put you on my back and we can beat GS.

 

I don't know, I was pretty impressed with Thomas putting his team on his back against the Wizards. Late in those games, he single handedly won ISO matchups in big spots that everyone knew he was taking the shots. He knocked down some threes, fades and had layups in really big moments. 

 

He was hurt against Cleveland and his size and durability as it relates to his size do matter. He really go banged around in the playoffs. But a healthy Thomas could fill it up for you if coached right. 

 

Also, he's a liability defensively, but he'll go to work. He fights hard when he's in, and he even had a solid post up defense against much bigger players than him. 

 

So in some ways, I agree the Celtics sold high, but I also believe that Thomas generally by fans is still a little underrated. 



#465 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:06 AM

Cavs would have been better off just getting picks and also trading James vs making one last run with Thomas as their 2nd best player.

#466 JordanKough

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 09:08 AM

I wonder if they would think about flipping Love somewhere now too. Get more athletic overall, find another 3 and D type guy out there. And add another pick or future value asset like Crowder from somewhere in the process. 



#467 mweb08

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:06 AM

Very good trade for the Cavs imo, at least if Thomas' hip won't be a problem.

I'm not sure that IT is even a downgrade from Kyrie. They both are great scorers, not true point guards, and bad defensively. However, Kyrie has more ability to improve his D based on effort.

Kyrie of course has more value because of the extra year and because he's younger.

Crowder is a very good get for the Cavs as well.

Then there's the pick, which it should be quite good, so that helps with the future, but they can also use that to push for another title. That pick could be useful in encouraging LeBron to stay as well.

#468 mweb08

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:12 AM

First game of the year for these teams: Boston @ Cleveland

Can't wait!
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#469 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 10:23 AM

I don't know, I was pretty impressed with Thomas putting his team on his back against the Wizards. Late in those games, he single handedly won ISO matchups in big spots that everyone knew he was taking the shots. He knocked down some threes, fades and had layups in really big moments.

He was hurt against Cleveland and his size and durability as it relates to his size do matter. He really go banged around in the playoffs. But a healthy Thomas could fill it up for you if coached right.

Also, he's a liability defensively, but he'll go to work. He fights hard when he's in, and he even had a solid post up defense against much bigger players than him.

So in some ways, I agree the Celtics sold high, but I also believe that Thomas generally by fans is still a little underrated.


Doing it against the wizards and needing to go for 40 multiple times vs arguably the best team ever are 2 different things.

I don't see Thomas being able to do that.

Now, will it be much of a difference in the regular season? No, probably not but who cares about that. The regular season means nothing.

#470 JordanKough

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

Doing it against the wizards and needing to go for 40 multiple times vs arguably the best team ever are 2 different things.

I don't see Thomas being able to do that.

 

First off, you're setting up a false dichotomy, playing with LBJ the standard is not 40+ games as LBJ's partner in crime. Kryie in his last 13 finals games against GS, has 2 40 point games total. Scoring 40 and 41. The 40 last year was in a 21 point blow out against GS, that they really gave up on early. And a +15 point win in 2016. So his 40 was never the margin of victory, or needed for either of those wins. Nor was it frequent enough even when they beat GS to say that it was necessary to be able to help Cleveland win. 

 

Let's go down a bracket, in those same 13 games, Kyrie only eclipsed 30 points a total of 5 times, and that's including the 2 over 40 point games. So no, I don't' see Thomas being able to meet the standards that Kryie never met either. If the question is can IT or Kryie score 40+ multiple times to help the Cavs beat the Warriors the answer to both is a definitive no. Nor is it needed. 

 

The point I was trying to make is that IT will come up and make HUGE shots in close games, in ISO sets when the game is on the line. Just like Kyrie did when he nailed that three against GS. He has the guts and the gumption to take those shots and he's proven in big moments he can do that. The Wizards have good one on one defenders, Beal Wall and Morris who were the predominant defenders against him in those spots all have significant size and athleticism on IT. I'm not saying the Wizards are the Warriors, but I am saying what Thomas did in those situations was borderline jaw dropping and he did it without the presence of a LBJ on the court with him. 

 

Now CLE also gets Crowder who can actually 3 and D when needed and isn't even needed to start...



#471 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:02 PM

It's not a false dichotomy. Kyrie was just as important as LeBron when they beat GS and has played at his level in many of the games.

Thomas isn't likely to be at that level on that stage and no matter how much you want to push it, the Wiz in a semi finals series isn't even close.

You can argue that Cle is better in 2017-2018 after this deal. Boston is definitely better, especially for the playoffs.

#472 JordanKough

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 01:58 PM

It's not a false dichotomy. Kyrie was just as important as LeBron when they beat GS and has played at his level in many of the games.

Thomas isn't likely to be at that level on that stage and no matter how much you want to push it, the Wiz in a semi finals series isn't even close.

You can argue that Cle is better in 2017-2018 after this deal. Boston is definitely better, especially for the playoffs.

 

Saying he has to score 40 points a game multiple times as the bar is definitely a false dichotomy. Irving didn't do that. Thomas doesn't need to do that. My general point there is there has been a slight overrating of Irving, IMO and a slight underrating of Thomas. Now if you want to argue Irving is better that's fine, but let's not put unfair expectations on Thomas in that process, too. 

 

I don't know that it's a slam dunk that Boston is that much better, I think they are going to miss Crowder more than it seems like they would. Just contextually, Crowder's RPM (3.89) was 20th overall last year. Irving was 53rd (2.05), and Thomas was 59th (1.83). 

 

I think Cleveland with Crowder's addition isn't just arguably better, I think they are much much better, both overall in talent, and better prepared to play GS. 



#473 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:22 PM

Saying he has to score 40 points a game multiple times as the bar is definitely a false dichotomy. Irving didn't do that. Thomas doesn't need to do that. My general point there is there has been a slight overrating of Irving, IMO and a slight underrating of Thomas. Now if you want to argue Irving is better that's fine, but let's not put unfair expectations on Thomas in that process, too. 

 

I don't know that it's a slam dunk that Boston is that much better, I think they are going to miss Crowder more than it seems like they would. Just contextually, Crowder's RPM (3.89) was 20th overall last year. Irving was 53rd (2.05), and Thomas was 59th (1.83). 

 

I think Cleveland with Crowder's addition isn't just arguably better, I think they are much much better, both overall in talent, and better prepared to play GS. 

And your point is wrong.

 

Kyrie Irving, in the playoffs, has been phenomenal.  That is when it matters.  That aspect of things is what Cle will miss with this trade.

 

Boston is only getting a guarantee of 1 more year out of Kyrie vs keeping Thomas.  Why do you think they did this trade?  Why do you think they held onto those precious picks all those years and then finally decided to trade one of them?  Because they know they just got a stud at PG and one of the elite playoff players in the game. 

 

Now, with that comes some hero ball from Kyrie but he's a playoff beast and he has done it against the best of the best...not against the freaking Wizards.

 

Crowder being gone just means more playing time for younger, more talented players.  Losing him is nothing to Boston.  And yes, I am aware he is a good asset to have but they know they have better talent behind him.

 

I told you this last year...Boston said with or without Jimmy Butler, we are not in better shape to beat Cleveland right now.

 

What they are saying now is that with Heyward, Tatum and Irving, that we are...and that is with them losing 2 key guys off of the team that had the best record in the East last season.  That is why they made this trade.



#474 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 02:34 PM

I get why Boston made the trade. They get the extra year of team control that Irving has over Thomas.  They don't have to give Thomas max money. 

I think Irving is the better talent, but I get that others think it's close or that Thomas could even be ahead.

Neither play defense. Both great scorers.


I don't really like Cleveland's decision making.  If you are grading it solely about getting the best return to give it one more run for James... + getting the pick (though the Nets might not be Top 3 terrible this year)... then I can see where you like the return.

However, if you don't believe Thomas and Crowder + what already existed is enough for the Cavs to win the title....  then I think the better move would have been just calling it a day and also trading James.

The Cavs have to work with the assumption he will be gone imo.



#475 mweb08

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:06 PM

Trading James may not have been an option. Plus, he may actually be willing to stay beyond next year.

Lastly, it's rare to have a chance at a title in the NBA, so I think it's difficult to throw away that opportunity.

#476 mweb08

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:07 PM

Thomas is just as good as an offensive player as Irving.

The key is his hip.

#477 SportsGuy

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 03:08 PM

Trading James may not have been an option. Plus, he may actually be willing to stay beyond next year.

Lastly, it's rare to have a chance at a title in the NBA, so I think it's difficult to throw away that opportunity.

Well if all you did was basically trade guys away for scrubs and picks, you may have been able to get him to drop the NTC

#478 JordanKough

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 04:42 PM

Doing it against the wizards and needing to go for 40 multiple times vs arguably the best team ever are 2 different things. I don't see Thomas being able to do that.

 

First off, you're setting up a false dichotomy, ...Kryie in his last 13 finals games against GS, has 2 40 point games total. Scoring 40 and 41. 

 

It's a false dichotomy to say that Isaiah Thomas has to score 40 points multiple times because Kyrie never did it twice in one season or more than twice in 13 games against Golden State. 

 

That says to me that you're slightly overrating Kryie (he never did this) and slightly underrating Thomas (he doesn't even need to do this). 

 

I think there's an interesting debate about if Boston is actually better with addition by subtraction, but that doesn't change the false dichotomy you set up for Kyrie and Thomas in your initial analysis. But that's a fundamentally different question than can Thomas do something that Kryie never did. And is Cleveland better off with Crowder assuming some drop off from Kryie, which I'll agree with there is some drop off, but I think Crowder more than makes up for it.



#479 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 04:52 PM

Too much dichotomy for one day, don't you think?
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#480 mweb08

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 05:02 PM

The big plus for Boston is they don't have to decide whether to commit to Thomas long-term or just lose him after next year. I wouldn't want him for some huge contract .




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