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Birds Watcher /Best O's Move = Saying Goodbye to J.Jordan


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#1 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:36 AM

Birdswatcher.com / Best Orioles Move this Offseason: Saying Goodbye to Joe Jordan
http://birdswatcher....-to-joe-jordan/

Do you agree with this?

I've had a number of people in the game tell me that Gary Rajsich was a strong addition for the O's, but I never looked at Jordan a huge detriment for the organization. I felt he (his drafted players) were hurt by poor Player Development (though PD often complained that the players they received, did not match the Scouting reports).

Also, Jordan's drafts often had large bonus money tied up in the top of the draft. With a budget set above him, there was a limitation with the amount of over-slots he could pursue.

Lastly, you had a system that during Jordan's tenure lacked much (nearly any) International talent. Without that talent in the system, the O's Minor League rankings from 3rd party sources always took a hit.

#2 Oriole85

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:57 AM

Birdswatcher.com / Best Orioles Move this Offseason: Saying Goodbye to Joe Jordan
http://birdswatcher....-to-joe-jordan/

Do you agree with this?

I've had a number of people in the game tell me that Gary Rajsich was a strong addition for the O's, but I never looked at Jordan a huge detriment for the organization. I felt he (his drafted players) were hurt by poor Player Development (though PD often complained that the players they received, did not match the Scouting reports).

Also, Jordan's drafts often had large bonus money tied up in the top of the draft. With a budget set above him, there was a limitation with the amount of over-slots he could pursue.

Lastly, you had a system that during Jordan's tenure lacked much (nearly any) International talent. Without that talent in the system, the O's Minor League rankings from 3rd party sources always took a hit.


Article has many good points, but I think is wrong in the main point of letting Jordan go as the title suggests. That's not to say he was going to be welcomed back. If I recall the chain of events, MacPhail resigned leaving the entire front office in flux. Like many others in his position he pursued other options and found one with the Phillies. I know the Stockstills were able to keep employment with the Orioles, guessing they were given greater assurances(possibly even guaranteed) that they were going to keep their jobs given their long-standing relationship with the Orioles. I'm not defending the process in any way, just explaining what I think happened.

I don't think Jordan was as bad as this article is making him out to be. Hindsight is 20/20 and I blame the PD staff more than the scouting staff. If they had drafted Lincecum and he would've gotten injured, lots of outcry would've been wasting a pick on someone with that height&unorthodox delivery. That being said the lack of quality prospects does not reflect well in Jordan in any way. Like other things in the organization, especially the baseball operations, lots of blame to go around from ownership to the coaching to the players and other facets of the team.

What I really take issue with Jordan being the "main" reason the Orioles are at where they are today. And even if it were true, i'll give the blame to the entire scouting system. And as I said earlier, I think the player development is more to blame. They've been this way for the past 14 years. It starts at the top with Angelos and works it's way down.
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#3 Luke Jackson

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:55 AM

Re: your point about scouting and player development pointing the finger at the other...that's not unusual in a dysfunctional organization. I thought one of the big keys for the next GM if he were to succeed would be strong communication skills in the sense that he or she would get everyone on board and moving in the same direction. Of course they hired Dan Duquette, who has the reputation of being the smartest guy in the room all day, every day. Apparently MacPhail had a very tight inner circle that he stuck by, so hopefully Duquette's a little more open about getting everyone's opinion in the organization and creating a sense of togetherness. Whether that's even possible with Angelos And The Two Sons involved...I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Re: Joe Jordan. Tough to evaluate any scouting director because so many things are out of his control. Matt Wieters is obviously his best draft pick, but just about anyone would've taken Wieters given that they had the go-ahead from the owner to give him a big bonus. I think Matusz will turn out to be a fine pick, but the O's could conceivably have Buster Posey at first base and Wieters behind the dish, but that's probably unfair for me to pick and choose like that because it's just so revisionist. The big choice at the time was Smoak or Matusz, and even though Matusz was dreadful last year, it's not like Smoak has torn it up. We'll see in the future whether Joe made the right call on the Matusz vs. Smoak debate, because it's not likely to be answered for at least a couple more years. Machado was an easy pick in 2010 and should be a stud. Bundy was apparently Joe's guy all along last year and that's the kid he really wanted. Last year's draft was absolutely sick so I don't know if you can say there was a wrong choice to be made. So many potential studs in that draft at 4 and beyond...Bundy, Starling, Rendon, Bradley, Lindor...picking between a Lambo and Benz, really.

The first round picks from Joe that didn't work out are well documented...Brandon Snyder, Billy Rowell, Matt Hobgood (really good kid by the way, hope he gets healthy and back on the mound).

Unfair for me to look at the 2010 and 2011 drafts -- just too early. May be too early for the '09 draft, but those kids have been in the system for awhile now so let's take a gander from '05 to '09.

2005: http://baltimore.ori... ... &year=2005 The best player out of this draft is Nolan Reimold. Garrett Olson made it to the bigs, and Spoone and Erbe were once very promising pitching prospects before they flamed out. Not a great draft.

2006: http://baltimore.ori... ... &year=2006 Zach Britton is the prize here and it looks like he'll have a productive big league career. Would have been nice to keep Pedro Beato, a supplemental rounder in this draft. Cheap bullpen pieces are always welcome. Ryan Adams was a nice get in the second round, and may be a second-division starter at second base for some team in the future. Berken was another nice get in the sixth round even if he tops out as a long man. And it looks like they actually drafted Kipp Schutz as a high schooler in this draft, only to draft him three years later out of Indiana. Looks like a decent enough haul, with Britton having a chance to be a no. 3 starter in the AL East.

2007: http://baltimore.ori... ... &year=2007 The highest impact draft of any Jordan draft thus far at the big league level. Wieters is a stud at the top, and they got Arrieta in the fifth round (slid due to money concerns). Odd that this draft ended up being Jordan's best so far because he had no second or third round picks because the Orioles were busy overpaying type-A relievers. Sigh. Joe Mahoney in the sixth round, Cole McCurry in the 43rd. Might see McCurry in the 'pen at some point in Baltimore this summer. Can't find anyone else of note.

2008: http://baltimore.ori... ... &year=2008 Good haul for Jordan. Matusz at the top, and he has at the very least provided one full productive season for the O's (2010). We'll see how his career turns out; I have a feeling he won't be the top-shelf starter he was made out to be but I think he'll settle in as a fine mid-rotation guy. Then we have Xavier Avery in the second round, and we may very well see Avery in September this year. Classic fourth outfielder profile: struggles with the bat, really fast, can cover a lot of ground in the outfield. In the third round, Jordan nabbed LJ Hoes, who has an incredible name and can really hit. In the eighth round, Jordan got a nice player in Bobby Bundy. With Avery, Hoes and B. Bundy, those are three of the top 10-15 or so prospects in the organization. Also, Oliver Drake in the 43rd round. Drake's now on the 40-man. Joe took Caleb Joseph in the seventh round, and Joseph was once a highly regarded catching prospect but he has stalled out at Bowie.

2009: http://baltimore.ori... ... &year=2009 Yikes. Hobgood's struggles are well-documented, and Givens (second round) may need to return to the mound. Tyler Townsend (third round) has never taken a walk in his life and can't stay healthy. Maybe the highest ceiling arm in this draft, Randy Henry (fourth round), was traded away for freakin Taylor Teagarden. They gave a ton of money to Cameron Coffey (22nd round) and Michael Ohlman (11th round) and those investments don't seem to be headed in the right direction. My best bet to have an impact at the big league level? Probably Ryan Berry (ninth round), who has battled injuries but has an awesome 'stache and really pounds the strike zone. I've also heard good things about David Baker (14th round), who will probably begin this year in Frederick after a nice year in Salisbury.

I just skimmed through those draft results, so I may have missed some guys. All in all, it seems like Joe Jordan was hardly THE PROBLEM with the Orioles. I have no idea how he stacks up with the other 29 teams as far as draft results from '05 to '09 go, but my guess is that he'd be middle of the pack.
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#4 SportsGuy

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 10:29 AM

I was never a huge JJ fan.

I felt he was a good baseball man who wasn't poor at his job but he wasn't great either.

I don't know that I was go as far as saying losing him was the best move because you don't really know if his hands were tied or not.

I think the best moves are Peterson and Brady personally.

#5 Can_of_corn

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 11:48 AM

Nice post Luke.

Well I hear Linda Ronstadt is looking for a guitar player.


#6 RichardZ

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 11:03 AM

Jordan wasn't bad but he wasn't good enough considering how good we needed him to be. Big misses on Rowell and Hobgood and the whole 2009 draft with Givens, Ohlman, Coffey, looks pretty bad. Bad teams can't afford to whiff on a whole draft year.

#7 JeffLong

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Posted 20 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Didn't have time to go back and read everyone's posts so I apologize for redundancies.

A. You can't say: we drafted player A instead of player B, and now player B is much better than player A. We should've drafted player A.

B. The biggest downfall of Jordan was drafting multiples of the same guy: Avery, Mummey, Hudson, etc.

C. I like that Jordan took gambles on guys like Berry, Coffey, etc. high upside moves are always good with me.

D. The biggest issue was player dev. Always was, still is.
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#8 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 04 June 2012 - 08:08 AM

Birds Watcher: http://birdswatcher....-orioles-draft/

Nothing in-depth here, but a nice primer / overview for anyone who has not paid much attention.

#9 Oriole85

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Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:28 AM

Didn't have time to go back and read everyone's posts so I apologize for redundancies.

A. You can't say: we drafted player A instead of player B, and now player B is much better than player A. We should've drafted player A.

That's what I've always said, change the rules, change the game. Sure it easy to say in hindsight, should've drafted Lincecom instead of Rowell. But if the roles were reversed, who knows if Rowell would be Trout now and Lincecom would've been another Hobgood.

All that being said, you'll always judge the hits/misses by who you could've taken. And if the player taken after your bust was a two-time Cy Young winner it looks bad. But by no means, does Lincecom have the same results with Baltimore he had in SF.
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