103 replies to this topic

[SportsGuy]

Definitely a long episode...sorry about that fellas!

[You Play to Win the Game]

I don't think Lebron or any athlete should heavily weigh what sports media and fans are going to think of his decision in regards to legacy.

 

Agreed 100%. 

 

Rob - I don't mind the long episode... it's too long to listen through in one sitting, but that's not a bad thing considering we get this once a week... let's me milk it a little bit longer, so no biggie as far as I'm concerned.

 

Sucks that it sounds like you guys had to miss most of the Orioles game though.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Some more athletes who:

 

-were "mega-stars" (still not sure where the line of demarkation is)

-were beloved in their hometown

-left their hometown to join another team

-had not yet won a title

-were in their prime

-were not immediately past their prime

-joined a team that had a least one other superstar already on it but NOT quite yet a megastar (lol)

-were born in the month of April

 

lol

 

Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head with no research, so I'm sure each one won't fit the exact criteria:

 

-Roger Clemens

-Alex Rodriguez

-Manny Ramirez

-Barry Zito

-Miguel Tejada (to Houston)

-Terrell Owens

-Randy Moss

-Charles Woodson

-Steve McNair

-Nnamdi Asomugha

-Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire

-Ray Allen

-Chris Bosh

-Joe Johnson

 

Don't follow the NHL all that closely but I know Ray Borque specifically left Boston for Colorado so he could win a title, although at that point I know he was past his prime, Marian Hossa and Dany Heatley also have both left places for various reasons, so did Joe Thornton

[JeremyStrain]

Agreed 100%. 

 

Rob - I don't mind the long episode... it's too long to listen through in one sitting, but that's not a bad thing considering we get this once a week... let's me milk it a little bit longer, so no biggie as far as I'm concerned.

 

Sucks that it sounds like you guys had to miss most of the Orioles game though.

 

Yeah it was good stuff, kept me interested, just a lot for one sitting at 1am.

[JeremyStrain]

Some more athletes who:

 

-were "mega-stars" (still not sure where the line of demarkation is)

-were beloved in their hometown

-left their hometown to join another team

-had not yet won a title

-were in their prime

-were not immediately past their prime

-joined a team that had a least one other superstar already on it but NOT quite yet a megastar (lol)

-were born in the month of April

 

lol

 

Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head with no research, so I'm sure each one won't fit the exact criteria:

 

-Roger Clemens

-Alex Rodriguez

-Manny Ramirez

-Barry Zito

-Miguel Tejada (to Houston)

-Terrell Owens

-Randy Moss

-Charles Woodson

-Steve McNair

-Nnamdi Asomugha

-Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire

-Ray Allen

-Chris Bosh

-Joe Johnson

 

Don't follow the NHL all that closely but I know Ray Borque specifically left Boston for Colorado so he could win a title, although at that point I know he was past his prime, Marian Hossa and Dany Heatley also have both left places for various reasons, so did Joe Thornton

 

You know I got your back on the NHL stuff. All 4 of those players were traded, didn't leave on their own. Ray did want a shot at a title, so BOS did him a solid and sent him to COL for a run at the cup, pretty stand up of them actually since they were rebuilding. Heatley and Hossa were traded for EACH OTHER after Heatley killed his good friend in a car accident being a knucklehead. A lot of people around the league didn't think he'd come back from that one. Thornton was traded in a big package.

 

I think you missed one that was Wayne Gretzky, even though it was for the last 2 years of his career, he was still one of the top 5 players in the league at the time and signed with a team that already had a star in Mark Messier.

[bnickle]

Some more athletes who:

 

-were "mega-stars" (still not sure where the line of demarkation is)

-were beloved in their hometown

-left their hometown to join another team

-had not yet won a title

-were in their prime

-were not immediately past their prime

-joined a team that had a least one other superstar already on it but NOT quite yet a megastar (lol)

-were born in the month of April

 

lol

 

Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head with no research, so I'm sure each one won't fit the exact criteria:

 

-Roger Clemens

-Alex Rodriguez

-Manny Ramirez

-Barry Zito

-Miguel Tejada (to Houston)

-Terrell Owens

-Randy Moss

-Charles Woodson

-Steve McNair

-Nnamdi Asomugha

-Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire

-Ray Allen

-Chris Bosh

-Joe Johnson

 

Don't follow the NHL all that closely but I know Ray Borque specifically left Boston for Colorado so he could win a title, although at that point I know he was past his prime, Marian Hossa and Dany Heatley also have both left places for various reasons, so did Joe Thornton

Youre not going to take me seriously I'm not going to take you seriously but all I'll say is a lot of the guys you named their teams were willing and ready to move on from them. It wasn't the player bailing on the the team in FA while the team is begging him to return.  Lebron completely left Clev high and dry. Not only that but yeah, you're right most don;t fit the criteria. Most weren't nearly in the same breath as a player as Lebron. LOL....youre listing some guys that aren't even going to be close to being in the HOF when their career is done. Yet, you think those are megastars in the same breath as LeBron.

 

 

 

I'm done arguing this. Point has been made. LeBron left Cle high and dry and he followed someone else's lead when he was the king of the sport. That hurt his legacy. Not just in my subjective mind, but a lot of others too. This is a guy people have been crowning as the next MJ, or at least getting in his rarified air, but  he blew any chance of that happening with how the "decision" went down.

[mweb08]

Anyway, how about the best baseball players lists?

[SportsGuy]

Saying LeBron left Cle high and dry is comical.

 

Of course, the poster saying it has a stated bias against LeBron, so its not like the opinion is one to take all that seriously.

 

But yea, concentrating on the list...what are your thoughts?

[SportsGuy]

To recap, here is my list:

 

20) MCab

19) Thomas

18) Jeter

17) Larkin

16) Smoltz

15) Moose

14) Schilling

13) Bagwell

12) Pedro

11) Chipper

 

In hindsight, while I don't "regret" having MCab on my list, I think Piazza would have been the better answer for that spot.

[bnickle]

I thought you had Glacvine on your list. Which I disagree with.

 

 

MWeb took to battling me on Lebron again but I gave my thoughts on the list throughout.

 

 

Again, McGwire's steroid stench is too strong. He undoubtedly was taking them his whole career and slugging and power was his complete game. He gave you nothing else. He can't be in the top 20 for that reason.

 

 

I agree with Cal between 11-15.

 

 

Jeter ahead of Larkin IMO but Jeter would be near the bottom of the top 20 for me and Larkin may not have made it.

 

 

MCAB would probably make the list in 5-10 years but not now. I agree with Mike there.

[JeremyStrain]

It's so hard including current players on these lists because they can still move up and knock guys down/off.

 

Looking at mid 90's-early 00's it's a really solid list though. Hard to say without knowing  the top 10, but guys like Puckett, Gwynn,  O'Neil, Palmeiro, Alomar Jr would all be in this mix somewhere.

[bnickle]

Gwynn  is another guy they touched on. See for me he's a perfect example of focusing too much on WAR and compaing it over players.

 

 

Gwynn was the best pure hitter of his era. You can argue Boggs was close and I'm assuming he is in the top 10. Gwynn would be towards the bottom of my list but he'd def be on.

 

 

OPS+ 132

 

Provided baserunning value.

 

IMO provided defensive value. I don't believe he was a neg defender for most of his career.

 

 

The more I look the more I feel like they really disrespected Gwynn by ommiting him

[SportsGuy]

I thought you had Glacvine on your list. Which I disagree with.

 

 

MWeb took to battling me on Lebron again but I gave my thoughts on the list throughout.

 

 

Again, McGwire's steroid stench is too strong. He undoubtedly was taking them his whole career and slugging and power was his complete game. He gave you nothing else. He can't be in the top 20 for that reason.

 

 

I agree with Cal between 11-15.

 

 

Jeter ahead of Larkin IMO but Jeter would be near the bottom of the top 20 for me and Larkin may not have made it.

 

 

MCAB would probably make the list in 5-10 years but not now. I agree with Mike there.

I had Glavine originally...But if you listened(although it could have been broken up..havent listened yet), I ended up taking him off due to BBR having his WAR show differently in 2 different spots...So, I had Smoltz replace him.

[SportsGuy]

Gwynn  is another guy they touched on. See for me he's a perfect example of focusing too much on WAR and compaing it over players.

 

 

Gwynn was the best pure hitter of his era. You can argue Boggs was close and I'm assuming he is in the top 10. Gwynn would be towards the bottom of my list but he'd def be on.

He would have been like in that 21-24 area for me and like I said, i would have had Raines over Gwynn.

 

Gwynn didn't provide enough TOTAL value(ie, defense, baserunning and offense) for me, which is why I left him off the list.

 

And I think you are really underrating how good Larkin was and he did it in a lot less games than say, Jeter.

[mweb08]

I don't have my list in front of me so correct me if I'm wrong, but here's mine:

20. Smoltz
19. McGwire
18. Schilling
17. Thomas
16. Piazza
15. Jeter
14. Griffey
13. Ripken
12. Bagwell
11. Chipper

[mweb08]

Gwynn was great as were a lot of other guys who didn't make the list. For a corner outfielder he didn't hit for much of any power and even though the average was great, he didn't walk much so it's not like his OBP exceeded other great hitters of the era. His defense and baserunning were solid I think, but nothing special.

[mweb08]

Big Mac was one of the most productive offensive players ever per game and he had an all time great season. Like I said, steroids aren't really a factor for me.

[bnickle]

He would have been like in that 21-24 area for me and like I said, i would have had Raines over Gwynn.

 

Gwynn didn't provide enough TOTAL value(ie, defense, baserunning and offense) for me, which is why I left him off the list.

 

And I think you are really underrating how good Larkin was and he did it in a lot less games than say, Jeter.

Gets back to the argument last week about measuring defense and baserunning. Gwynn stole over 300 bases, not that SB are the end all and be all of baserunning. I also believe he was at least an average defnder for most of his career. Not a negative one.

 

 

 

Gwynn would be my best example here of the look test over the advanced stats. I think he was a top 20 player since '80.  Towards the bottom but def on.

 

 

And I was typing responses to Mweb jumping down my throat on LeBron again while I was listening. I knew you had Glavine listed and relatively high at one point (12th or 13th) or at least thats how I understood it. If you ended up taking him off I missed it and yes there were some audio issues.

[mweb08]

It's so hard including current players on these lists because they can still move up and knock guys down/off.

Looking at mid 90's-early 00's it's a really solid list though. Hard to say without knowing the top 10, but guys like Puckett, Gwynn, O'Neil, Palmeiro, Alomar Jr would all be in this mix somewhere.

Spoiler alert, but none of those guys made my list and Kirby and O'Neil weren't even close.

[bnickle]

Big Mac was one of the most productive offensive players ever per game and he had an all time great season. Like I said, steroids aren't really a factor for me.

When he's arguably on them his whole career and his whole career was based on slugging I can't see how that shouldn't be a factor.  Totally different aniaml than talking about Bonds who provided much  more than just slugging and probably wasn't on them for the early portion of his career.

 

 

 

Gwynn is my biggest issue for omission  on the list while McGwire is my biggest issue with a player who made either list.

 

 

 

SG curious where you would have ranked McGwire?? He wouldn't even be in my top 25. Maybe top 30.