389 replies to this topic

[BSLMikeLowe]

I want a new arena as much as anyone but this is Baltimore, where democrats rule the city but can't agree on what color the harbor water is.

First Mariner arena is paid off and still makes tons of money. Any renovations would be paid for from a surplus of money and not be borrowed against a current debt. It handles concerts fine, and the circus still comes to Baltimore, every year. Even if we get a new arena it's no guarantee that the old one gets torn down either. Knowing this city, preservationists would fight it's destruction. The Beatles did play there after all. Preservationists also want to keep the Mechanic...which has been vacant for years and looks like something even communist Russia wouldn't build.

The economy sucks right now, and I guess the city cant even afford a new arena even when private money is going to help build a chunk of it. They could afford that eyesore Hilton, though!

Speaking of things communist Russia would build.....

[BSLChrisStoner]

Baltimore Business Journal (March 2013):
http://www.bizjourna...t.html?page=all

[BSLMikeLowe]

Since this is a project that is so long overdue for Baltimore, I have no problem with the proposed public financing aspect of it, although I can certainly understand why some might. And maybe the restaurant tax wouldn't be the worst way to go, given how low Baltimore's currently is versus comparable-sized cities. I certainly wouldn't curtail my eating out over it if I were still there.

 

Either way, it is promising to see that people remain actively engaged in trying to make this happen.

[Luke Jackson]

A lot to take in here. Like everyone else, I'd like to see the current arena replaced with a more modern outfit. Previous renditions and outlooks for a new arena in Baltimore called for 16.5K seats, which made no sense to me. If you're building a new arena, make it a big-time arena. However, the reason for me wanting a new arena is for cosmetic purposes. Big concert events wouldn't skip Baltimore for DC nearly as much and Baltimore would have the opportunity to host a lot of cool events like the NCAA Tournament. You might see Maryland and Towson play hoops there. You might see more of an outreach from the Caps and Wizards. Basically, I'd like to upgrade over what we have currently because it'd be cool.

Realistically, I don't think a new arena is really plausible at this time for a lot of reasons. Number one, people are beginning to understand that public financing for sports stadiums is a ripoff. I understand that OPACY revitalized downtown Baltimore and that we'd build that park over and over again. But for every OPACY, there's a long list of broken promises stemming from publicly funded sports projects. Local businesses aren't impacted positively nearly as much as teams tend to say they are when they're looking for public funding. Number two, it'd be nearly impossible to for a new arena to fill a full calendar without an NHL and NBA team. Take Verizon Center, for instance. That has 82 guaranteed dates filled each year for a loooong time. Without an NHL and/or NHL team soaking up those dates, it's a nearly impossible sell that you NEED a new arena.

A new shiny arena in Baltimore would seem destined to be like Kansas City's...used as leverage by the NHL and NBA franchises ("we could move to Baltimore!") to get the public financing they want from their current cities.

[BSLMikeLowe]

So long, 1st Mariner. Welcome back, Baltimore Arena

[NewMarketSean]

It doesn't matter if the arena was able to seat 17,000 and was a sports first arena. It'd still be outdated and need to be replaced now. It actually still makes money so I understand the city not being in a hurry to replace it.


Might as well be content with the Ravens, Os and the arena we have. It ain't getting any better.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Not surprised 1st M won't be renewing... I'm actually impressed they've been able to weather this storm given the trouble they were in a few years ago.

[DuffMan]

http://www.baltimore...0,5246919.story

 

Hopefullly news like this will get the city to stop dragging their feet on this potential new arena and convention center.

[DuffMan]

http://www.baltimore...5279,full.story

[DJ MC]

http://www.baltimore...5279,full.story

It's difficult to believe that we are as far from the opening of the new part of the CC as that was from the opening of the old part--17 years. I hate being old.

[Oriole85]

Baltimore Sun: City has major hurdles to clear to bring NBA team here

 

http://www.baltimore...0,1965991.story

 

I posted this article in the NBA section with the Wizards playing Carmelo's Knicks tonight, but it's probably more relevant here.

 

Minor league basketball, whether the NBA Development League or another variety, would be a poor business prospect for the existing Baltimore Arena, said the facility's general manager, Frank Remesch. "The building is too successful without it," he said. "It's not worth giving up the dates for family shows and concerts."

He called minor league sports a tough road. "Especially in this town," he said. "We're snobby. We have the Ravens and Orioles."

Fry added that a new arena could help attract the Wizards to play in Baltimore more frequently and also attract other basketball events to the city. "A new arena does open up tremendous possibilities for a host of NCAA and Olympic trial events," he said.

 

"I don't think the city could support either professional hockey or basketball," he said. "I hate to say that because I grew up in Baltimore. But I just don't see it."

[BSLChrisStoner]

The lack of vision by people in positions of authority in this City is often depressing.

 

If you build a new Arena, the question is not whether the Baltimore area would be ready to house an NBA or NHL team in 2014 (whatever in the immediate term)... it's about 15-20 years out.

 

There are a million reasons to build a new Arena, with or without the NBA or NHL...  but you don't build a new Arena that eliminates any possibility of those sports.

 

As far as housing one of those teams... it goes back to the luxury suites. Is there enough corporate dollars to go around to fill those suites? That point can be debated either way. Still fairly regardless in any current discussion of the merits of building a new Arena.

[NewMarketSean]

The lack of vision by people in positions of authority in this City is often depressing.

 

If you build a new Arena, the question is not whether the Baltimore area would be ready to house an NBA or NHL team in 2014 (whatever in the immediate term)... it's about 15-20 years out.

 

There are a million reasons to build a new Arena, with or without the NBA or NHL...  but you don't build a new Arena that eliminates any possibility of those sports.

 

As far as housing one of those teams... it goes back to the luxury suites. Is there enough corporate dollars to go around to fill those suites? That point can be debated either way. Still fairly regardless in any current discussion of the merits of building a new Arena.

I get what you're saying and mostly agree but arenas nowadays don't have long shelf lives. Just off the top of my head, 30 years seems to be the number. 15-20 years out the arena would be halfway through its life cycle and there are sure to be a new generation of arenas in cities that already have arena sports teams and Baltimore would again have an outdated arena while trying to get a team.

 

I don't know if the deets have changed but Hackerman was going to finance a good-sized portion of the arena in turn for getting a new Sheraton out of it, which would be connected to the arena and convention center. It's deal that IMO, the city should be all over, but aren't for whatever reason -- chief among them, this is Baltimore City, where it's a miracle that anything ever happens when it comes to the gov't being involved....except for that eyesore of a Hilton.

 

So if they can't even get the ball rolling on that, then I don't ever see a new arena getting built in the foreseeable future. The city seems to think like the owner of a 1988 Honda Civic when it comes to the arena. It's paid off, still starts, and gets OK gas mileage. No reason to spend money on a new car, or arena.

[Oriole85]

The lack of vision by people in positions of authority in this City is often depressing.

 

If you build a new Arena, the question is not whether the Baltimore area would be ready to house an NBA or NHL team in 2014 (whatever in the immediate term)... it's about 15-20 years out.

 

There are a million reasons to build a new Arena, with or without the NBA or NHL...  but you don't build a new Arena that eliminates any possibility of those sports.

 

As far as housing one of those teams... it goes back to the luxury suites. Is there enough corporate dollars to go around to fill those suites. That point can be debated either way. Still fairly regardless in any current discussion of the merits of building a new Arena.

Couldn't an arena be built like New Orleans or OKC where the footprint would allow them to upgrade for an NBA or NHL team at a latter date. That seems like the best solution to me in all of this.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I get what you're saying and mostly agree but arenas nowadays don't have long shelf lives. Just off the top of my head, 30 years seems to be the number. 15-20 years out the arena would be halfway through its life cycle and there are sure to be a new generation of arenas in cities that already have arena sports teams and Baltimore would again have an outdated arena while trying to get a team.

 

I don't know if the deets have changed but Hackerman was going to finance a good-sized portion of the arena in turn for getting a new Sheraton out of it, which would be connected to the arena and convention center. It's deal that IMO, the city should be all over, but aren't for whatever reason -- chief among them, this is Baltimore City, where it's a miracle that anything ever happens when it comes to the gov't being involved....except for that eyesore of a Hilton.

 

So if they can't even get the ball rolling on that, then I don't ever see a new arena getting built in the foreseeable future. The city seems to think like the owner of a 1988 Honda Civic when it comes to the arena. It's paid off, still starts, and gets OK gas mileage. No reason to spend money on a new car, or arena.

 

Great analogy about the 88 Civic.

 

I do agree that Arena's have somewhat limited shelf lives. To me, that means when you do build one... you need to make sure it sets a new standard of excellence when completed. Others will come along and surpass whatever you do, but if you build a sub-par building to begin with, you will only speed up the decay.

[Oriole85]

I get what you're saying and mostly agree but arenas nowadays don't have long shelf lives. Just off the top of my head, 30 years seems to be the number. 15-20 years out the arena would be halfway through its life cycle and there are sure to be a new generation of arenas in cities that already have arena sports teams and Baltimore would again have an outdated arena while trying to get a team.

 

I don't know if the deets have changed but Hackerman was going to finance a good-sized portion of the arena in turn for getting a new Sheraton out of it, which would be connected to the arena and convention center. It's deal that IMO, the city should be all over, but aren't for whatever reason -- chief among them, this is Baltimore City, where it's a miracle that anything ever happens when it comes to the gov't being involved....except for that eyesore of a Hilton.

 

So if they can't even get the ball rolling on that, then I don't ever see a new arena getting built in the foreseeable future. The city seems to think like the owner of a 1988 Honda Civic when it comes to the arena. It's paid off, still starts, and gets OK gas mileage. No reason to spend money on a new car, or arena.

Great point Sean with the lack of a shelf life of a sports facility. Any arena built pre-1990 without significant renovations is basically considered obsolete at this point.

 

I do think a new arena is necessary for the points Chris has laid out today and before. You're dealing with basically an ancient building at this point.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Couldn't an arena be built like New Orleans or OKC where the footprint would allow them to upgrade for an NBA or NHL team at a latter date. That seems like the best solution to me in all of this.

 

The current issues are about finding the necessary public funding, and for the private funding to be secure. So until those larger pieces of the puzzle are addressed... can't really get to bogged down in the deeper details.

That said, in previous links in this thread there was discussion of the Arena size. To give you any chance down the road... you have to build an Arena with a certain attendance capacity, and more importantly; a certain amount of luxury suites.

 

It would seem like you could build the Arena with the ability for some removable seating, and maybe even expandable suites.

[NewMarketSean]

Great analogy about the 88 Civic.

 

I do agree that Arena's have somewhat limited shelf lives. To me, that means when you do build one... you need to make sure it sets a new standard of excellence when completed. Others will come along and surpass whatever you do, but if you build a sub-par building to begin with, you will only speed up the decay.

And I just don't see Baltimore, with all its issues, pulling off a state of the art arena, in this economy. Not to mention the red line seems to be a go, which on paper is estimated to cost 2 billion, and almost surely will cost more than that.

 

Some of the plans I've seen are pretty cool, though, and would perhaps get pretty close to state of the art.

 

And I think Hackerman is in his 90's or close to it, so who knows what would happen after he is gone.

[Oriole85]

And I just don't see Baltimore, with all its issues, pulling off a state of the art arena, in this economy. Not to mention the red line seems to be a go, which on paper is estimated to cost 2 billion, and almost surely will cost more than that.

 

Some of the plans I've seen are pretty cool, though, and would perhaps get pretty close to state of the art.

 

And I think Hackerman is in his 90's or close to it, so who knows what would happen after he is gone.

All the more reason to jump start the process.

[BSLChrisStoner]

All the more reason to jump start the process.

 

Right, this is a huge point.

Also, addressing one of Sean's points... one of the major issues that Baltimore faces is that they are not incorporated into Baltimore County. Due to that, there is a limited tax base... so, with a limited tax base... they have high tax rates... which  keeps many people from moving to the City....which cyclically limits revenue from increasing... which limits the ability to further confront some social ills... which again limits people from moving to the City.

Using public funds on new facilities is never popular, when you have cities running on fumes, and many other agencies dealing with funding issues.

 

However, for Baltimore... a new Arena really should be a priority.... not because it would be 'nice to have.' But because it would bring more people downtown (and spur a new downtown section.. like around the Verizon Center in DC)... spending more money, generating more revenue for the City.. which could allow the City to either decrease their tax rates, or at-least use the generated revenue to help improve other aspects of the City.

 

The primary benefit of a new Arena is not the NBA or NHL... or even more concerts, or NCAA games etc...  the primary benefit of having a new Arena is having additional space for conventions, and attracting them... which are huge money-makers for any City.  The Convention Center lacks the square footage to attract the largest conventions, and Baltimore misses out due to that.